You’re gifted enough to cruise through the first few stages of your education without trying, so you forge an identity as “the smart kid” but never build up skills in learning or studying, so when you finally get to a level where your natural intelligence can’t carry you anymore you can’t keep up with the people who did learn those skills and you start to fail and lose your identity as the smart kid which causes you to break down because that’d how you defined yourself for so long… or so I’ve heard.
That’s the cost of designing education for the worst students.
This is actually the reason. Because there is no such thing as “natural intelligence”. Not more than there is “natural strength”. There are natural predispositions, yes, but what you get is function of what training effort you put in. Whether you realise, and/or like, putting effort into training your intelligence, is is another thing. So people who are “above average” were in a favorable environment that fostered their development without it feeling forced, or unnatural. And then, when the environment was replaced by the school’s, it sadly didn’t foster personal development anymore. I would argue we would need to redesign education, now that we have internet. We don’t have to design courses around physical limits.
Because there is no such thing as “natural intelligence”.
Weell, some children have it easier to comprehend stuff on the logical/abstract level than others. Which feeds their curiousity. Which trains their intelligence…
Well you have to meet these people with down syndrome
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It is also not always about our intelligence but our skill set. I rarely have hard time learning when I want, but issue in my case has been in addition to probable ADHD and mental health issues that the system wasn’t designed to teach me studying.
I feel like you watched me grow up. For a long time I was smart enough to pick things up naturally, I was even offered to skip grades.
Then the math got complicated and I didn’t know how to learn it. I went from being the smart kid to being the stupid one in remedial math. Being smart was all I had at that point, so when I “lost” that, I lost everything in my eyes. I was stupid and I was never going to be anything because of it.
I ended up getting my GED as an adult and I now have a promising career in insurance- so I didn’t really lose everything, but when I was 15 it sure felt like I had.
More or less the same, except I ran out of steam somewhere in the calc 2 to calc 3 area…so instead of becoming an engineer, I became someone who works for them.
In some ways it ain’t bad. I’m “skilled technical staff” whose work makes my position “salary non-exempt”, which means that at most companies/employers, my work gets guaranteed salary pay, but if I am asked to go over 40h in any given week, they’re legally obligated to pay me 1.5x OT pay.
I am crossing this divide now. I have secondary education but no university and I am working to get to med school now (In Finland it is a combined undergrad and med school). I think I can do it but I don’t really know how to study. I know how to learn but learning in schedule is the issue. I was too ill to go to university when I should have and I could have gone to easier courses I could have gone to without an entrance exam and done OK but I always wanted medicine. Or well, I not easier but easier to get into like maths. After I got better I ended up in aid work, and stopping that is really hard. But I still want to become a doctor so I am trying now in my thirties. Having what looks like undiagnosed ADHD that is now under investigation and crappy childhood might explain part of why I never became what people felt I should have but the fact that I never had to learn to study because I didn’t need to get through is up there.
I try to remember that our education does not mean anything for our value, but it seems hard when it comes to you.
Excuse me, I resent being attacked at 5am on a Friday, tyvm.
Wow, that’s exactly what I’ve… heard… too!
That stang…
Also, when you see it happen and you actually start trying and do better but some teachers always give you a lower mark to “motivate” you so you’ll “try even harder”.
some teachers always give you a lower mark to “motivate” you so you’ll “try even harder”.
Do people actually do this? I know one thing for sure: someone who does that is not “gifted”
Yes they do. The old “we expect more from YOU”.
Yes, they do…
First half describes me, second part does not. Never struggled in school or university (although I did fail lectures because I was too lazy to show up for exams).
But I also never defined myself about being “the smart kid”, I always rejected that notion. Society didn’t and still projected it onto me. That’s why I’m breaking down crying every other day. I always tried to help people that do struggle, I always tried to keep my “gift” as far away from conversation as possible. It didn’t matter, I’m a failure.
Why did you have to remind me of my higher education failures
I am good with knowing my deficiencies. What sucks is being told that they are my fault because I should be “smart enough to overcome them”.
Agreed 100%, being a specialist in something always has led to someone taking a pot shot at your deficiencies.
Or being a jack of all trades and getting potshots for not being an expert in everything just because you pick up the basics quickly.
It’s actually insane how many teachers and other education professionals waved me off with ‘you’re smart enough, just try harder’ while I was obviously suicidally depressed and extremely dysfunctional. Having undiagnosed autism because I was a teenage girl in the '00s was fun.
Girls, undiagnosed autism, and suicidal tendencies? Name me a more iconic trio!
People who say that are just trying to be a dick to you. Say something soul-searing to them in response and they’ll stop.
Most people just don’t understand that being really good at something doesn’t mean you can’t be terrible at something else. Like, I can problem solve a wide variety of things, but there are a few things that I just have no success at even if I know the problem and the likely solution.
The most infuriating one for me is that if I can’t see something then I cannot line it up right. A screw or bolt out of view means I have a 50/50 chance of ever getting it started even though I know how I can move it to fit in. Like I know to tilt and whatever, but without a visual frame it becomes impossible. A ton of people just yell me I am not trying hard enough, even though attempting to learn for decades hasn’t worked out for me.
But with even the slightest view I can get it started no problem. Being told I am not trying hard enough is infuriating when I am just being honest that it is my limitation.
Alternatively, I’ve met plenty of people who are so desperate to climb the ladder that, even knowing full well their deficiencies, they climb to a level where those deficiencies become detrimental for everyone around them.
If you aren’t a good organizer, and climb into an organization centric position, that’s 100% on you. If you aren’t a good leader and take a coordinating position, that’s on you. If you aren’t good at lining up blind screws, and you knew that was a core competency for your job when you took it, that’s on you. It’s not that I expect you to be “smart enough to overcome” whatever you’re bad at, but you shouldn’t be in positions where something you’re bad at, but can’t overcome, is a major part of your duties.
At that point, yes, I’m going to be “mean” and directly point out your deficiencies.
Can you tell I had a fun meeting today?
It seems like you’re describing the phenomenon where people get promoted up until the point where they don’t do a good job anymore.
I never knew how people can not see that the position was not for them and still accept it, and even work the job for years.
I could take a job where I had the technical responsibility for what my team makes, but I don’t ever want to be anybodys boss. All of that personal stuff on a day to day basis, negotiating pay, etc just isn’t for me.
Ah, the ol’ “here’s the test here’s exactly what you need to do to be successful” followed by “lol that was never the real test.”
The guilt that “you could have done more with your life”, despite being a successful engineer with a happy family.
“Gurtaj is a principle software engineer at Google you know! You used to be the same grade in school. What happened?”
“Dad, I’m running a multimillion dollar startup right now”
“Tsk tsk”
“with all that million dollar you still can’t be a doctor, did you know your nephew could play violins blindfolded while performing a surgery when he was still 3 years old. What a disappointment”
Meanwhile,
“Osrs is running a multimilion dollar startup you know! You used to be the same grade at school. What happened?”
“Dad, I’m a principle software engineer at Google right now!”
“Tsk tsk”
Dude…fuck…are you me?
There’s that joke about wearing regular clothes on Halloween to go as the “gifted kid”, and when people ask what you’re supposed to be you sigh and say you were supposed to be a lot of things.
“I’m a homicidal maniac. They look just like everyone else.”
Was this from Dexter? I feel like this is from Dexter.
I thought Wednesday Addam’s said that?
100% Wednesday Addams.
It might be the best line/delivery in a movie full of great ones, and maybe Christina Ricci’s best as well.
Oh I think your right.
I could totally have seen this been a joke delivered by Dexter, going out for Trick or Treating with Asher and Cody, or going to an office costume party.
Let’s be honest, most of us think we’re in the blue zone, when we are probably in the red zone
No, people in the red zone think they’re in the green zone.
FB proved this
Of of the lessons of the pandemic times!
And everyone believing they’re in the blue zone is statistically speaking very likely in the yellow zone.
Sometimes we wish that our impostors syndrome was true
I just wish I didn’t know that whatever is true none of it matters anyway.
I had to do an official test along with a psychological examination for reasons when I was almost 18 years old, so I know at some point I was in the blue zone or above, but it doesn’t really fucking matter when you have autism, a mood disorder and have been neglected by your parents so you never learned things like determination or frustration tolerance. I think I shaved a solid 10 IQ points off anyway from almost a decade of substance abuse issues, so now I’m just autistic and dysfunctional without the gifted part.
Serious question: what kind of drug abuse does it take to shave off 10 IQ points? I’ve done my fair share and would prefer not to have that happen to me - if it hasn’t already.
A ton of amphetamines and other stimulant research chemicals and a fuckton of alcohol. I think probably the latter is mostly to blame.
Most likely most of us would be in the yellow zone
Look at the mathematician here
In order to bother with something like lemmy, you’re probably above average intelligence (specifically to do with computers)
You can be good with computers but dumb everywhere else, plenty of people like that exist
How many of us were put in the blue zone because we liked The Magic School Bus and turned up to second grade already knowing what an esophagus is?
I’m cleanly in the green 👑
Excellent at being below average
I’m in this picture and it makes me keenly aware of what I could accomplish if I didn’t just coast by
Go with what makes you happiest, most often more effort can lead to less rewards. Ultimately you have to find your comfort zone.
wise words. I started just playing to my strengths a few years ago, instead of overachieving for the nebulous award of being “the best”, and my life has gotten immensely more fulfilling.
my current employer isn’t asking me to be the best in my field, just good at what I do, and that feels great. I get shit done, and don’t feel the need to constantly reinvent the wheel. or feel the stress of failure when something is over my head.
We all think we are there, it’s not a good mentality. No judgement, I am with you
AscendedMeme.jpg: Being Dumb | Being Gifted | Being Just Smart Enough to Coast by Easily in life while enjoying it.
I’m in this picture too, but the red part
I still suffer from this. Promising early start, intense self-confidence issues and depression by the end.
The secret is we’re all gifted and talented in our own ways. Our society is structured to benefit and work for a specific kind of gifted and talented. You got to an early start, and then when it was determined your talents weren’t profitable, the problem was framed as you wasting them instead or the system failing you.
Not to mention our current identification of gifted and talented is basically just “So you know how that one kid has ADHD and his lack of structure in their home life results in poor grades? Well we put them in the remedial class. There we will teach them coping and organization skills. Meanwhile, this other kid? They also have ADHD but we don’t realize it because their grades are fantastic. Turns out their home life is stressful in a specific way that means they get good grades, but they don’t really know why or what structure is helping them. I school we will put them in the gifted and talented class. There, they’ll be in an unstructured environment where they can learn and explore at their own pace and OH NO NOW THEY’RE ANXIOUS AND UPSET BECAUSE THEY DON’T KNOW WHAT TO DO BECAUSE THEY WERE THRIVING IN THE STRUCTURE OF A REGULAR CLASSROOM”
Our education system is not based on individual need and instead on assuming everyone is basically the same, just more or less advanced
I definitely identify with the second kid. Being tossed around so much because they tried to figure me out and failed definitely doesn’t help. “You’re good! But not good enough.”
I had a moment in elementary school I’m still working through. I was in 5th grade and reading a book I thought was really fun and exciting and I was enjoying it. My teacher pulled me aside one day to inform me I was underperforming my reading level because the book was written for a 3rd grade reading level and I was capable of reading at a 9th grade reading level. But here’s the thing: what 10-year-old wants to read a 9th grade set of books? What 10-year-old wants to read To Kill a Mockingbird?
I honestly haven’t had the enthusiasm or fervor for reading ever since. I’ve had bouts of being able to focus on reading for a few months at a time, but the energy always burns out after a while. It’s something I have to focus on when I’m in a book store or library that most of the printed word is, at the end of the day, schlock, and that’s a GOOD THING. We all like schlock-y things. Whatever schlock that it is that you’re into, you’re into it. Maybe you like three camera sitcoms even though the laugh track is cheesy. It could be you like superhero movies, even though Marvel puts out 3 a year, and it’s hard to keep up with them and everyone you know has been less enthusiastic about them ever since Endgame. Perhaps you love video games, but you spend some time every day investing time into a completely non-challenging game on your phone. I’d even include foodies who go to Taco Bell every so often. We all have non-challenging schlock that we enjoy and consume, and that’s OKAY. It’s what makes the non-schlock elevate itself to a higher level when you experience it.
So bottom line.
Don’t let anyone detract your schlock. They have their schlock, you don’t judge them for it. Love your schlock unironically. You’re beautiful and perfect, and so is your schlock.
Doubt is a sign of intelligence. Which can sometimes lead to confidence issues. Just try to keep things in perspective and not let doubt keep you from taking calculated risks. It’s when we allow ourselves to become paralyzed that things regress. A lot of it is environment as well so there’s no simple answer but I can assure you thet you’re not alone.
I think I needed to hear this, thank you
Many such cases!
Fun fact: programs for gifted kids have historically been far more underfunded than programs for other exceptional students.
By the way, the euphemism of “exceptional children” pleases my autistic brain way more than any other word for Special Education students. It has all the compliment-sounding qualities of “Special Needs” but is even more literal than any previous euphemism. It literally means “kids that teachers need to make exceptions for”
“Gifted” programs royally screwed my education. I had huge gaps in my knowledge because they decided that being top percentile in reading/writing (and being the weird kid) meant I could just skip out on classes for special little weird classes or sit with higher grade classes. I just had ADHD btw and really liked to read. Anyway, I would LOVE to know wtf they thought they were doing moving a kid around that much in 3rd-5th. I suffered the hardest with math. I was missing bits and pieces, which is pretty gd important in math, and I’d still somehow get the answers right but talked to about my overly complicated or ✨creative✨ solutions lol. Even now I hide my work if I need to solve something because I’m probably doing it weird… Then later it was really fun finding out that I couldn’t really live up to being “gifted”. 0/10 being special made me less educated.
Skipping classes as a “gifted” kid always seemed like a very weird concept to me, you’re making the child lose a lot of interaction with their peers for dubious reasons. It seems to me like it should only be reserved for the most bulging hyperwrinkled brains, like those kids that finish college by the time they’re 16 or whatever that would obviously be extremely understimulated when going the normal pace. Even then you could argue the gigabrain kid would probably benefit greatly from socializing with their peers, I mean where’s the rush really? They’re young, they can always learn more later.
those kids that finish college by 16 usually just have parents that pay a fuckton of money to skip their kids through the honestly very simple and bleak public schooling experience. has nothing to do with intelligence and everything to do with not dragging out units for ages and paying a small fortune to get private tutors and certified testing done.
For what it’s worth, math can be taught very linearly, but I think it can be explored and approached many different ways. I did the same thing, the teachers would say “I don’t know how, but you got the right answer”.
I kind of wish we leaned more into the way individual kids intuitions of math worked, I think you could teach the foundations much faster that way.
3-5 is mostly arithmetic and intro to word problems anyway, I’m awful at arithmetic but it doesn’t affect doing any of the important parts of math.
“well if those kids are so smart surely they can do more with less right?”
-average conversation at an budgetary meeting for education, probably
Truth. When I was in the gifted reading program us dweebs had to temporarily be relocated to the teachers break room.
I’m sure the teachers that shared that break time with us didn’t enjoy it.
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This is funny, but even the most intelligent people are inflicted with this. Don’t let it keep you down, we cannot be good at everything.
Its been consistently self-reported by Harvard students. And another effect is present, too - excellence leads to being placed in competitive environments, where everyone else is just as excellent. And this can make brilliant people feel stupid.
Intelligence also doesn’t necessarily translate to actual success. I’ve been through numerous assessments as a child that confirmed I am comfortably in the “green zone” (if measured by IQ, that is), but I also have pretty severe ADHD so I can only really make use of my brain for short periods of time.
I can get a week’s worth of work done in a day, but only once a week, and I spend the rest of the week wondering where I’d be if only I could work like that every day. I was also a decent student in school/uni but never near the top of the class, because I couldn’t bring myself to study for anything more than a few days before the exam.
No we’re not, you’re just in the blue zone. Us greens are quite happy.
Found the red
Well, there necessarily need to also exist below average Harvard students. Its probably more of a shock to have the one thing you might have been proud of, being rather smart, be taken away once you get there and realize you are probably at most average and have to find a new identity
But its just an illusion.
Did you know that 80% of people think they’re above average intelligence?
I think a good part of that is because ‘average human’ is not a good way to represent who we are individually. I’m probably above average at specific things but in many other respects I’m average or below or wherever I’m supposed to be. Maybe most people are above average even though on average most of us are average.
Fully above average people IMO are like astronauts and stuff. We all live in the shadow of that former navy seal/doctor/astronaut who is like 45 or some crazy shit.
This really depends on the distribution. If some or all of the people in that bottom 20% are very, very stupid it could actually work out that 80% are above average, because the average is being pulled down by the people at the bottom.
This is why we have different averages like mean, median, mode, and RMS because they each give you different interpretations of the raw data. For example the mean electro motive force of the grid is around 0 volts because it spends as much time in the negative as the positive. We use RMS here because negative numbers become positive when squared.
Just the fact that you’re thinking about this in terms of a distribution that’s non-normal indicates that you’re on the right side of that distribution.
Thank you I guess?
To be honest I don’t think intelligence can be boiled down to a single number. Like somebody or something can have a slow processing speed but can do a lot of different things, versus something or someone that is incredibly fast but limited in it’s usage. To some extent this actually happens inside human minds with things like system 1 vs system 2 in psychology having different roles within the brain/mind of a human and being suited to different things (flexible but slow and single tasking vs dumb but fast and parralel in this case).
Also I am considered by my society to have a mental disability. So regardless of how far right of this distribution I might be there are still things I don’t understand that more average people can. You could argue that those things are only domain-specific forms of intelligence but I don’t know if that’s actually true or not. There are too many variables and anomalies we don’t understand.
Flat earthers and anti vaxxers bring the average down far enough to make that possible.
I’m definitely average
Maybe a little stupid sometimes
There is no green region. It’s blue all the way up.
Ah, I see the stereotype of everyone thinking of themselves as “lazy genius” is something we’ve carried over from Reddit. We’re all above average intelligent and could really achieve something if we just bothered to work hard and apply ourselves!
lol
Yeah, one of the most important epiphanies I’ve ever had is realizing I’m not a lazy genius, I’m just lazy. It was a rude awakening to realize that I need to work twice as hard to keep up. But it was probably the best thing to happen to me!
I wish my iq was 20 higher or lower, idk just gimme out of the blue zone
The older I get the more I profoundly identify with Cypher. Ignorance truly is bliss.
I say it regularly, I would prefer to be ignorant… At least then I wouldn’t be hyper aware our species stinks.
Seriously, sweet ignorance and the woman in the red dress, every day.
I get what you mean… though, I feel like an IQ test is a biased test, I took one as a teenager and scored high. Which was a morale boost at the time, but a few months later I had medical problems and ended up having a stroke and had to basically start all over with speech, motor and memory.
Sure, I survived. But I went through every therapy, started back up and realized I wasn’t close to what I was before. Which was crushing, sure I knew it wouldn’t be the same and I’m still above average, but the latent memories of my capabilities before constantly haunt me.
I didn’t mean to depress anyone, just enjoy the blue zone if at all possible. I constantly try remembering, it can get worse. /hug
though, I feel like an IQ test is a biased test
IQ as used by worm-brained US citizens daily (that is, to measure intelligence) is pseudoscience
Thank god, it’s pseudoscience now. Though I was tested over 2 decades ago, it seemed silly they made a big deal out of it.
I always new IQ was inaccurate but I didn’t know it was that inaccurate
Cool name. Are the new ones as enormous as they say?
Thanks, and do you mean the Butthole Spiders?
Of course I mean the butthole spiders! What do they do with their time since the revamp? Maybe we could convince the judge to let us old school the Dahmer types for a few bearamies? I pulled off toe nails until I was transferred to running coffee shops in the rehab neighborhoods so I never got to see the new spiders.
I like the term “twice exceptional”. All of my biggest strengths are aspects of myself that come with tradeoffs. For 20 years straight, I was praised for the strengths and scolded for the tradeoffs. Motherfucker, you can’t enjoy how quickly I learn things I’m interested in and also treat me like I’m lazy when you expect me to sustain equal amounts of interest in 10 different things that bore me and I fail. You can’t enjoy all the art and tech I make and then get annoyed when it’s difficult to break me out of a hyperfixation.
I firmly believe that the tortured artist stereotype is bullshit. There’s nothing about being an artist that requires you to be miserable. But we sure do treat people like shit when their brains work differently.
The later half is so true, early on when you’re a statistical anomaly you can get special treatment, but once you become a small problem or the skill backfires they blow up as if it couldn’t have been seen coming. They expect 100% efficiency like you’re a battery to sap and don’t care how it affects you mentally.
Being gifted only refers to intelligence most of the time. But intelligence alone won’t make a person excel at their field. You can be among the most intelligent people but still stay in the blue zone.
I think excellence comes to be when intelligence meets motivation, purpose, creativity, social skills or other factors.
And when it comes to the blue zone resilience would be a key factor. If one is intelligent of course you realize your faults quicker as well. However it takes resilience to keep going in the face of your own doubt.
That’s why in the real world people who are very convinced of themselves and their own ideas will get far even if not gifted at all.
Agreed with most of your post but uhhhhhhh
That’s why in the real world people who are very convinced of themselves and their own ideas will get far even if not gifted at all
Confidence isn’t as good for finding the truth or good solutions as it is for tricking other people’s brains into thinking that you’re a reputable source of information. If you mean “will get very far” as in “capable of raising through the ranks of a hierarchy, regardless of what they actually do with their position later” or “capable of establishing their own little flat-earth cult”, then sure, a confident dumb person can achieve that. Not sure that’s something to be celebrated though.
Absolutely agree. I meant exactly what you said.
This just reads like a post about how you should be a good little capitalist slave.
They don’t mention a job once. “Field” can refer to study, or anything else.
Imagine how mediocre you’d have to be to reply like that.
You don’t think weren’t “gifted, motivated” people in Soviet communist Russia?
Sooo mediocre. That’s why it reads like a dumb capitalist plug.
In Soviet Russia everyone is excellent
Or you could read it as critical of capitalism.
“motivation, purpose, social skills, creativity” arguably all valued more under socialism/communism (admittedly there’s a lot of semantics going on under the hood here). Which is why so much tallent goes to waste as grist in the capitalist mill.
Holy shit guys, I get the anti work rhetoric, but you’re essentially saying “don’t work hard for anything, just live by coasting”. I really hope this pendulum stops swinging and finds a happy medium
Yeah, I don’t really give a shit anymore. After covid, and seeing how my country treated it as political, and how people are disposable, why would I want to try? I have a job, they think I’m good at it, and it keeps a roof over my head.
I’ve been making other people large piles of money off of my work my entire adult life and I just don’t care anymore.
I’ve had jobs where I didn’t try before, and I just got super bored. My above comment isn’t even necessarily regarding jobs, it’s regarding putting in effort in life. It applies to personal projects etc too. I have an issue with procrastination because of my childhood, and I find it really satisfying when I can actually focus and get a project done.
If you get enjoyment out of doing fuck all, then more power to you, but myself and many others actually enjoy doing things.
