- cross-posted to:
- fucksubscriptions@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- fucksubscriptions@lemmy.world
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So we want free apps that offer everything and don’t take your data or advertise. It must also have constant security updates and a fleet of developers keeping it running. Good Luck finding that unicorn.
I actually like this development. I’d much rather pay for a service with money over my privacy.
Signal literally exists. Free.
It’s only free because they’re trusting users to donate. That method of generating income for their developers could stop working at any time. Lots of FLOSS projects struggle to find kosher funding.
Come on dog this is literally just ‘yeah well what if we imagine a hypothetical world where MY argument is right, how about that?’
It’s only free because they’re trusting users to donate.
No, they sell their technology to Meta and Microsoft. WhatApp’s encrypted protocol that was rolled out several years ago is Signal’s. That’s also why Signal will never match all features of those messengers. They cannot drive WhatsApp and such out of business because that would mean Signal is out of business.
No. Everyone can use Signal technology for free in their own products. They are not selling it to anyone. Yes, some time ago moxie helped to integrate their encryption algorithm in WhatsApp and that’s that. Very likely that he / the foundation got paid for that service, but it’s not like Signal is funded by selling their technology to anyone. And for sure it’s not like they can’t match WhatsApp features because then WhatsApp would go down the river and they run out of funding…
I don’t know what to say but stuff like this makes me kinda angry. You read about moxie helping implement their encryption in WhatsApp at one point, and then came up with this story that Signal is somehow mainly funded by meta and Microsoft and can’t compete with their products because it would put ms and meta out of business and endanger their own funding this way. Like, please don’t make up stories like that, OK? It’s not a nice thing to do.
If you are really interested here are some actual facts on the matter:
On February 21, 2018, Moxie Marlinspike and WhatsApp co-founder Brian Acton announced the formation of the Signal Foundation, a 501©(3) nonprofit organization. The foundation was started with an initial $50 million loan from Acton, who had left WhatsApp’s parent company, Facebook, in September 2017. The Freedom of the Press Foundation had previously served as the Signal project’s fiscal sponsor and continued to accept donations on behalf of the project while the foundation’s non-profit status was pending. By the end of 2018, the loan had increased to $105,000,400, which is due to be repaid on February 28, 2068. The loan is unsecured and at 0% interest.
Source: wiki. Took me five seconds to google that. Again please don’t spread made up stories, thanks.
No. Everyone can use Signal technology for free in their own products. They are not selling it to anyone.
Everyone can use the AGPL version but they also sell proprietary versions to customers.
I don’t know what to say but stuff like this makes me kinda angry.
You are angry because I read official Signal announcements and documents that clearly says that Signal / Open Whisper Foundation is working with commercial partners?
You read about moxie helping implement their encryption in WhatsApp at one point
“To amplify the impact and scope of private communication, we also collaborate with other popular messaging apps like WhatsApp, Google Allo, and now Facebook Messenger to help integrate Signal Protocol into those products.” – https://signal.org/blog/facebook-messenger/
“In collaboration with Signal, Microsoft is introducing a Private Conversations feature in Skype, powered by Signal Protocol.” –https://signal.org/blog/skype-partnership/
Those commercial partners don’t need to comply with the AGPL and release their entire app source code under AGPL as well because: “You hereby grant to Open Whisper Systems and to recipients of software distributed by Signal Messenger a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable copyright license to reproduce, prepare derivative works of, publicly display, publicly perform, and distribute Your Contributions and such derivative works, as well as the right to sublicense and have sublicensed all of the foregoing rights, through multiple tiers of sublicensees, provided that in all cases, Signal Messenger will make Your Contributions available under an OSI-approved open source license.” –https://signal.org/cla/
In case you don’t understand the Signal CLA: While contributions from outside participants will be open sourced, Signal has any right to make and sell proprietary versions.
Non-profit open source foundations with commercial offshoots are completely normal. For a somewhat similar case but without the CLA see Mozilla Foundation and Mozilla Corporation.
Source: wiki. Took me five seconds to google that. Again please don’t spread made up stories, thanks.
Luckily, everything I wrote is the truth. Too bad you only googled for 5 seconds and not 30. Please read linked official Signal documents/announcements carefully and calm down. Thanks.
You shifted your goalposts from “they’re working together so they can’t compete because (somehow) that’d drive them out of business” to “they’ve cooperated with other companies to make their services more secure” and are somehow acting like you were right.
First, isn’t it good for them to work with other companies to improve other services? Doesn’t that help more people?
Second, there’s no fucking way they’d drive Google and Facebook out of business just by offering a superior service. Even if they did, wouldn’t that be good for them? How did you even come to that idea in the first place?
You shifted your goalposts from “they’re working together so they can’t compete because (somehow) that’d drive them out of business” to “they’ve cooperated with other companies to make their services more secure” and are somehow acting like you were right.
I see you’re new to PR speak. If Signal’s commercial cooperation was solely “to improve other services”, all Signal code would be BSD-licensed and available for free to incorporate into any proprietary service, not AGPL + CLA with sublicensing clause. That’s not shifting any goalposts, that’s basic comprehension of PR speak and what such licensing models are for. Signal is working with Facebook/Meta, Microsoft, and in the past also Google when Allo was still a thing.
Second, there’s no fucking way they’d drive Google and Facebook out of business just by offering a superior service. Even if they did, wouldn’t that be good for them? How did you even come to that idea in the first place?
Not Google or Facebook as whole but their chat services. Those companies would have absolutely no incentive to pay Signal money for proprietary licenses. Google Allo is already dead, so Google is not paying any longer, unless Signal tech is incorporated into another product.
Dual-licensing with a CLA is nothing uncommon, neither is a non-profit being attached to a for-profit.
Signal literally exists. Free.
Signal has fewer features than non-premium Telegram. Both are open source, neither can be used with alternative servers (unlike Matrix).
Signal is peer to peer no?
It is not
Sounds like the best open source projects out there. How bout we use our tax money to fund great free software for everybody?
Signal uses donations to keep running. That’s one of the reasons why they don’t need to do this kind of crap. Kinda like Firefox.
It’s sad to see that slowly but surely the Internet gets divided into the more and more useless giant sector and the free and open sector, which just doesn’t get the attention it needs to be attractive enough for most to switch over. And then there’s also this weird shadow area where I often hear those pirate chanties from…
Firefox wants to rely on donations but in reality 90% of their funding comes from an advertising company.
Firefox doesn’t even accept donations. Mozilla Foundation does, which is a related nonprofit, but it crucially does not fund any firefox development and legally cannot do so.
What, related nonprofit that can not legally fund Firefox development? What are you talking about? It’s literally developed by them.
Mozilla Firefox, or simply Firefox, is a free and open-source web browser developed by the Mozilla Foundation and its subsidiary, the Mozilla Corporation.
Yeah, you should look up what Mozilla Corporation is and who employs those Firefox developers.
Mozilla Foundation owns the trademarks and runs the infrastructure. Firefox developers are employed by for-profit Mozilla Corporation.
PS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_Wikipedia
And almost no firefox user wants to admit that, among the other things Firefox is flawed for. But, “IT’S NOT GOOGLE” is their only rationale.
Not being chromium based is quite a big deal, however.
Damn, I didn’t know that. Now I’m sad.
Talk to anyone who works for a nonprofit. It’s really hard to find enough donors sometimes. You end up relying on a few really rich people because most of the community can only donate a couple bucks.
If every Firefox user donated $4 per year they’d be a billion dollar company and wouldn’t need Google’s deal
That’s just sad. I hope my ~20$ a year that I donate to a few of my most needed OSS-projects are helping somewhat.
I definitely prefer premium over my personal data being the product for “free”.
As I get older I’m appreciating paid electronic services and content when done responsibly in exchange for a private ad-free and well done experience. But it’s taking a lot to get over my decades of conditioning assuming everything on a computer and internet should be “free”.
I’ve enjoyed my kagi premium search trial and seeing the prices is a bit much. But getting really good search results and having the webpage or search run so fast and seeing my ad blocker greyed out because there were no ads and trackers to block is surreal this day and age.
I just wish we had a better way of trusting telegram. The only thing encrypted by default is secret chats. I’d buy premium if it made all chats including group chats started by the user encrypted by default.
I totally agree with you, but it’s the damn cable model all over again.
Pay us so we don’t have to make money by selling you stuff.
Hey, we can still make money by selling them stuff.
Kagi is really, really good.
Yeah, problem with the fremium model is that they usually still collect and sell information on their premium users just the same as their free users. The premium just add some semi-essential features that they cut out for the free users. And finding truly 100% premium services that don’t sell personal data is rare these days because that’s where the money is for now, information. I don’t mind paying for a good service, but I won’t both pay and share my personal information, that’s just paying twice.
The issue is that is that now they have your billing address and credit card number
I will never understand why people switched from WhatsApp to telegram. Tg is just Russian WhatsApp.
TIL telegram is Russian and bad. dang.
It’s not. The founder is russian and created vKontakte but basically had it taken away from him by Putin. He’s outspoken against the regime and just because he’s born in Russia shouldn’t mean he should be seen as part of that crappy government.
What are the kids using nowadays? Signal?
Matrix
Kids? Instagram
I think it’s more TikTok these days
Signal
Yes Signal is goog
Whatsapp doesn’t have even a tiniest bit of telegram functionality, most importantly, bots. The person who made this post bitches about weirdly specific functionality that doesn’t affect you at all. I have a telegram premium (which is dirty cheap) and I never knew I could ban sending VMs, nor I had any reason to do so. Even in the free version you can restrict people who can write to you (e.g. only your contacts), if you don’t like to get VMs from your friends, just tell them. Also, security-wise, we all know that whatsapp gives your data to whatever US authorities ask and tg never did anything like that. All the security risks came from users not paying attention to privacy settings, like exposing their mobile number.
I have a telegram premium (which is dirty cheap)
Is it cheaper than USD 4.99 per month? That’s the cost I could find online. Premium is not available where I live, so I cannot just take a look.
Telegram is not Russian. The creator is, but that is about it.
I think they are referring to the large Russian user base.
I think they are referring to the large Russian user base.
Telegram is one of the very few ways for uncensored communication and news gathering.
I wasn’t insinuating anything either way. Just observing.
deleted by creator
Also, never sold any data to any authorities, all the security issues came from users not paying attention to privacy settings. The stigmatisation of telegram as ‘russian messenger’, even though the team that made it and maintains it left russia a long ago, prevents this software from getting its rightly deserved popularity
privacy should be enabled by default and not through some hidden settings
privacy should be enabled by default and not through some hidden settings
What’s hidden about Settings > Privacy? We’re not talking about editing some INI file or crawling through the Windows Registry here. I agree with you that some defaults can be better but claiming those are hidden is just wrong, man.
Telegram is in every way better. My primary reason for prefering Telegram over anything else are bots (API specifically). I mean bots functionality is so awesome that I can’t properly describe how awesome it is. <3
It’s not better in every way. WhatsApp is encrypted by default, Telegram not.
Why tf is this downvoted if it’s true? Telegram’s own encryption is a joke, you can’t enable it in group chats or through desktop clients. There’s also part fo ToS that states you can’t use your own encryption in Telegram, which is pretty suspicious of a supposed privacy-friendly messenger
Because it is not true. WhatsApp maybe encrypted but not if you allow apple/Google backup and there is multiple known cases of backdoor.
And telegram is encrypted. The End to end encryptions has to be activated in 1 to 1 messaging if wanted. But, still, messages are encrypted for other messaging. Also, in my country my phone number is directly liked to my name, by law. As such, Telegram offer way more privacy and security than Signal or WhatsApp as there is the possibility to use a username and hide the phone number.
And anyway, most of people don’t really care. Telegram is better as it offer way more features.
WhatsApp has an e2ee backup option and according to Signal WhatsApp doesn’t have a backdoor. Telegram does not encrypt group chats, which is terrible for privacy and security. Hiding the phone number is a solid feature, I admit. But it hardly protects you from the government, especially if you become a high-profile target.
That is the biggest reason I don’t trust Signal. They implemented Whatsapp’s encryption and while technically the encryption hasn’t been broken, the way it works forces you to leave data on your device, which has been proven dangerous in practice for the kind of people it sets out to protect.
Telegram by default does not send end-to-end encrypted messages (only in secret chats) and thus can be considered very unsafe as the server owner can literally read all your messages.
They give the user the impression that they are similar secure to e2e encrypted messengers but really are not since most users just start a normal chat.
This also means that, in theory, surveillance is very possible and likely as the russians are not really to be trusted by anyone. Privacy nightmare.
Telegram by default does not send end-to-end encrypted messages (only in secret chats)
When I tap the new message icon in the lower right corner, Telegram asks me which type of message I want to send. There is no default there. Maybe other clients do it differently from the main Android client but here there is no default.
WhatsApp by default backs up to Google drive, which is laughably insecure.
I don’t know how good is WhatsApp’s e2e implementation, I’ve heard good things about protocol though. But I do know Telegram protocol documentation contains all information needed to implement e2e capable Telegram client, and their e2e is really good, I’ve seen it done by my friend and as I’m a programmer and am interested in cryptography, I followed his work very closely.
I still do not trust e2e group chats, it’s a shaky point in security protocols. There was some kerfuffle about WhatsApp being able to silently add invisible listeners to group chats, wasn’t there?
Telegram very explicitly chooses the right amount of security and makes user aware of inconveniences this level of security brings along. WhatsApp lies in user’s face, making you think it’s secure and convenient.
edit: btw I’m Telegram premium subscriber and love it. I subscribed for the ability to convert voice messages into text. I am aware of privacy concerns, voice messages get sent to some 3rd party for this to work. Pretty often this speech-to-text works not very good, I expect it’s much better for English language though. I still love my Telegram premium, for being able to support developer and to lower the chance of being the product. Cost is negligible, benefits are tangible.
Every service has a product they sell, if a service is free — you are the product.
Need I remind you WhatsApp is owned by Meta? Free service from creators of Facebook and our mutual respect to their privacy practices, all in the same sentence, yeah.
Telegram is owned by a person born in Russia, but has long moved out and lives in
GermanyDubai, where Telegram’s HQ is located
I keep forgetting why sometimes I even use Telegram. It’s just there. I don’t want their dumb subscription.
You can use it without premium.
WTF?
Well I don’t think you can turn off receiving voice messages in other messengers, either. It’s a weird premium-only feature, but eh, at least they’re not making things worse compared to the baseline.
You can just turn off receiving all messages from any user. This is specifically for people who told their friends that they don’t want to listen to voice messages and want texts, but friends still use voices. Every one I know has a friend like that.
I’ll stick with Signal thanks
Signal can block voice messages? How?
telegram, originated from our russian friends, and they use it heavely to push their views, eventhough i think that everybody should be able to express their views, still i would not like that my kids would use it, hence it is blocked @ home.
Using telegram for years. Its the best messenger.
Don’t have any troubles. I can use e2e-chats if needed.
I truely trust them. Besides, their Android client has the best Android source code I have ever seen. Very good resource.
Annnnnnnnnnd…Signal!
Signal is superior in all the important security ways anyway. You’re not losing much except stickies and emotes or whatever.
Signal is only good at doing one thing, and that’s encryption. It lacks so many useful features that Telegram has.
Such as?
The user interface itself is amazing, true seamless multiple device support - including web clients (with your drafts synced on all your devices too), live location sharing, polls, live voice channels, good stickers, bots, public groups/channels, 2gb file sharing, video messages, usernames, etc.
Okay, so why are you claiming it “only does one thing well”?
Because the only good thing about Signal is it’s encryption.
Well, that’s subjective, but okay
I switched all of my friends and family to telegram in 2013. I deleted it 2 months ago. 10 years.
Telegram was so great. Always cutting edge, released so many features before anyone else, and the app always stayed extremely lightweight. What broke the camels back for me was them destroying transfer speeds for free users.
I have 1gbps internet connection, and videos and photos take FOREVER to download and send on telegram. Trying to send a short 30 second clip on telegram takes a good 90-120 seconds, even on the lowest compression.
Meanwhile snapchat and other apps take 3 seconds and look better?
They are trying to push their premium so hard, which is fine, gotta pay, but I’m sorry there’s no chance in hell all of my friends and family are paying $7 CAD each per month.
At this point I’ve just switched to RCS messages for all of my Android friends, and Snapchat for my stubborn iOS friends.
signal is the perfect messaging app for normies
I would generally agree with you, if it could allow you to sign-in on multiple devices, and share message history. I understand why it doesn’t do either one, but it does cripple the experience
But… you can’t sign-in on multiple devices and see the message history there?!
You can once they have both been set up, the history from that point on is shared.
No. History is not synced between devices. Did not use it on windows? - deliniced and after relink you have no history again. It annoys with entering a password. Migration to a new phone backup to s file, somehow copy the file to a new phone, restore - not for normied.
signal has same e2e encryption as WhatsApp and requires your phone number: same level of privacy,much worse user experience, much less features. Not a great option for normies.
its a sacrifice one must make. also whatsapp is closed source so e2e is as good as nothing
I avoided using telegram when it asked for my phone number.
It is time for Signal.
I don’t get how people expect services to stay free while also being against any kind of subscription or ads and barely donate to support these projects.
This isn’t an essential feature they’re paywalling. I don’t even remember the last time I sent a voice note, let alone get one from a stranger. Feels more like a thank you from the devs for supporting them
I’d understand paying for an active feature, like to SEND voice messages, but not having to pay to restrict spam sent my way.
This is VOICE MESSAGE we’re talking about, not calls nor chats. You can already block calls from non contacts and create a folder to only show chats from your contact.
How many voice message spams have you received that you feel like this is a deal breaker and how is Signal an appropriate alternative in this regard, when it doesn’t even have as many privacy options including this one?
If it wasn’t useful it wouldn’t be paywalled.
