• jetA
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    1 year ago

    To be fair, and I realize it’s difficult to be fair here:

    The Israeli government has said it is going for the total destruction of Hamas. Hamas has said it is going for the total destruction of the Israeli government… They’ve taken up equivalent positions

    I think what that really means, is both belligerents are going to try the radical new policy of killing more random civilians, and seeing if anything changes…

    • Earthwormjim91@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      No. Israel has said they are going for the total destruction of Hamas. Hamas is a government entity and the ruling government of Gaza.

      Hamas has said they are going for the total destruction of Israel the nation. Including all Jewish civilians. Not the government, all Jewish people in Israel.

      That’s been Hamas’ position for years. They want to eliminate all Jews from the region.

      • jetA
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        1 year ago

        Literally in the article that this post is about, they said they are trying to avoid civilians. It’s blatant fucking lie, but it’s what they’re saying.

        You just said that they’re going publicly, for the destruction of all Jewish people, that contradicts the article that we’re talking about here. If they’re stated goal is the death of Jewish people, why would they try to avoid Jewish casualties, why would they say that? If it’s in their charter shouldn’t they reinforce it when they’re talking in public?

        If we’re pulling in outside sources. https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide

        • Earthwormjim91@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Nope. Quote it then if you’re so sure.

          Nothing in that article at all says they have tried to avoid casualties.

          “Israel is a country that has no place on our land,” Hamad said in an interview with Lebanese TV channel LBC on October 24, which was translated and published Wednesday by the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI). “We must remove it because it constitutes a security, military and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nation. We are not ashamed to say this.”

          In the interview, Hamad said that Israel’s existence is “illogical” and that it must be wiped off all “Palestinian lands,” a term the terror group uses to mean the West Bank, Gaza and Israel, minus the Golan Heights.

          When asked whether this meant the complete annihilation of Israel, Hamas replied: “Yes, of course.”

          “We must teach Israel a lesson, and we will do it twice and three times. The Al-Aqsa Deluge [the name Hamas gave its October 7 onslaught] is just the first time, and there will be a second, a third, a fourth,” Hamad continued. “Will we have to pay a price? Yes, and we are ready to pay it. We are called a nation of martyrs, and we are proud to sacrifice martyrs.”

          “We are the victims of the occupation. Period. Therefore, nobody should blame us for the things we do. On October 7, October 10, October one-millionth, everything we do is justified,” Hamad said.

          So they intentionally attacked civilians, this dude is claiming they know they attacked civilians, they will do it again and again and again until they completely eliminate the entire nation of Israel. Which includes all Jews in the region.

          But hey, they claimed the land originally by genociding everyone that lived there too. So it’s par for the course.

          • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            You know, I was going to point out how terrible his argument is, but there’s no need for that. It should be no surprise that they are just as craven as they say they are.

          • jetA
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            1 year ago

            He also repeated the false assertion that Hamas had not intended to harm civilians, but that there were “complications” on the ground.

            From the article above

            • steventhedev@lemmy.worldOP
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              1 year ago

              Finish the quote:

              Overwhelming evidence has emerged over the past three weeks of deliberate attacks against Israeli civilians, as part of the instructions given by Hamas commanders. In many cases, the terrorists went from house to house and executed or burned entire families, and some 260 civilians were massacred at an outdoor music festival.

              Your mental gymnastics are Olympic level, mate.

              • jetA
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                1 year ago

                I’m not defending either government. They both clearly killed civilians intentionally

                They’ve both made statements they wanted to destroy the opposing government.

                Pointing that out shouldn’t be controversial.

                I gave you the relevant part of the quote, from the article, were Hamas was laying out their policy. They’re lying, but their policy as stated is equivalent to the Israeli government policy. Which is exactly what you were asking me to provide in your previous comment

                • steventhedev@lemmy.worldOP
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                  1 year ago

                  Their policy is also stated in their charter, which goes beyond just killing all Israeli civilians. It says they will kill all the Jews everywhere in the world.

                  But perhaps you’d prefer to see actions - Israel is currently engaged in urban combat with an enemy who intentionally uses civilian infrastructure (a war crime, by the way). There will be collateral damage from this, especially when Hamas don’t allow civilians to evacuate out of the heavy combat areas.

                  Hamas on the other hand are continuing to launch rockets daily at civilian targets in Israel, intentionally targeting civilians while celebrating every rocket siren.

              • jetA
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                1 year ago

                Did you just threaten to shoot me in the head? You’re threatening violence against me for an internet discussion?

                Putting that aside, Hamas is a terrible organization, they shouldn’t exist, and they need to be deposed. I’m on board with that.

                I’m pointing out that both belligerence have taken equivalent positions, that they want to destroy the opposing government. And a lot of civilians are going to die in the middle regardless of the rhetoric.

                • Earthwormjim91@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  Nope. I’m just saying when things do hit the fan, that the side you are on isn’t gonna fair well.

                  And no, again you are lying claiming that Hamas said anything about the government. I directly quoted them saying they intend to keep targeting civilians and completely annihilate the entire nation of Israel.

                  That’s not an equivalent position in the least.

                  Yes a lot of civilians will die. Mostly because Hamas keeps targeting civilians and operating military bases in civilian infrastructure like hospitals and schools. Hamas already said they don’t care about their civilians and intend to martyr them. They use civilians as shields and intentionally get them killed. That’s on purpose because they’re fucking terrorists.

                  Hell they kill more Palestinian civilians than the IDF.

                  • jetA
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                    1 year ago

                    Which side do you think I’m on exactly?

                    I’m applying critical reading skills to every news article I’m coming across.

        • Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          Literally in the article that this post is about, they said they are trying to avoid civilians.

          Yeah… so… after them killing over 1200 Israelis, the vast majority of them civilians, everyone they could get their hands on basically, I kinda don’t trust them.

          • jetA
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            1 year ago

            100%, they’re lying through their teeth.

          • fiveoar@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            1 year ago

            Yeah… so… after them killing over 5,000 Palestinians, the vast majority of them civilians, everyone they could get their hands on basically, I kinda don’t trust them.

            • anteaters@feddit.de
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              1 year ago

              everyone they could get their hands on basically,

              If that utter nonsense was true there would be 100x as many dead.

        • keardap@lemmy.selfhost.quest
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          1 year ago

          They literally went to private people homes in Israel and burned their babies alive. As in, murdering the parents and then setting the baby on fire.

          • jetA
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            1 year ago

            Yes. Hamas is a terrible organization.

            But in the article the original post is about, both governments have basically said they wanted to destroy the other government. Those are equivalent, combative statements.

            • keardap@lemmy.selfhost.quest
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              1 year ago

              That is not what OP said. Hamas said they want to repeat 7/10 events. Where burned babies.

              Israel want to kill all Hamas members, and dangers its own soldiers and civilians in the attempt to minimize the number of Palestinian civilians that get killed.

              Those two groups are not the same.