I fundamentally disagree with how Section 31 has been handled by most writers post-DS9. It should be a conspiracy of like-minded individuals that exists parasitically within Starfleet, not an official (or an “unofficial official” agency). Starfleet already has an intelligence agency, which everyone seemingly forgets about. Section 31 is not an operation being run by them. Section 31 should be treated less like “Starfleet’s CIA”, and more like Bohemian Grove as it exists in the mind of Alex Jones. The only post-DS9 Section 31 stuff that really clicked was, surprising, the ENT subplot of Malcolm being a Section 31 asset, because it understood that it was the kind of conspiracy that embedded itself deep within Starfleet personnel and didn’t flash its ass at the universe.
This trailer does not give me confidence that the treatment of Section 31 as CIA action heroes is turning around.
It should be a conspiracy of like-minded individuals that exists parasitically within Starfleet, not an official (or an “unofficial official” agency).
I agree. When 31 was first introduced, and Sloan explained that Section 31 was sanctioned by Starfleet under Article 14, Section 31 of the Starfleet Charter, the implication was that they were people who misinterpreted or construed a (probably minor) part of the Starfleet Charter and used it to justify damn near anything.
Personally, I hate how Section 31 has been changed to be misunderstood, cool good guy/anti-hero types who are doing the wrong things for the right reason. DS9 had it right with portraying them as the villains within who should be snuffed out because the ends don’t justify the means.
Yes-ish. The characters were villains, but the organization wasn’t necessarily. For instance, in Discovery season 2, Leland and his crew were the villains, but Section 31 was portrayed less as an extremist cabal and more as a misguided morally-grey organization. Less a blight upon the Federation and more an uncomfortable, but integral, part of it.
@setsneedtofeed@lemmy.world captures it well. Instead of being a cabal of extremists doing illegal and immoral things because they think they’re connected to a higher purpose, they’re a semi-official CIA-like organization.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that Section 31 isn’t supposed to be a cool or semi-legitimate organization (with ships, insignia, etc.) but rather shadowy and absolutely beyond the pale of legitimacy where very few can stomach what they do. From an artistic/thematic POV, Section 31 should be there to show us that a good society requires work to maintain and that its undoing can come from within by those claiming to protect it by eschewing that society’s values. In other words, the ends don’t justify the means.
Section 31 was portrayed less as an extremist cabal and more as a misguided morally-grey organization
My interpretation was more that they were “hiding in plain sight” at that point in time - Pike was under the impression that they were some kind of special forces, and learned the truth over the course of the season.
I only watched this trailer once, but I didn’t see any insignia, so I think S31’s exact status is still TBD.
It should be a conspiracy of like-minded individuals that exists parasitically within Starfleet, not an official (or an unofficial official agency).
In fairness, Sloan said they were a branch of Starfleet Intelligence with an official designation in his very first appearance on DS9, and nothing that came after that really contradicted him (other than his obvious lies in “Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges”).
Whatever liberties have been taken since then, that wasn’t one of them.
I always took that explanation as the thinnest of lie meant to give an air of legitimacy. Given the methods used to control Bashir, they seemed to clearly be working not just to hide their operational details, but their existence from the legitimate chain of command.
I always took that explanation as the thinnest of lie meant to give an air of legitimacy.
I think a lot of people did, but the episode doesn’t really make the case that it’s a lie - in fact, Sloan is protected at the highest levels of Starfleet Command, which supports the idea that Sloan was being completely truthful when he was trying to recruit Bashir. It’s a legitimate reading of the episode, at any rate.
It could be, but it’s brought us to the point where Section 31 has narratively usurped the role of Starfleet Intelligence in its entirety and has kind of lost the point. Reading S31 as a conspiracy is the smarter play for people in charge of Trek, and I am disappointed that they’ve gone completely the other way. Like I mentioned, the S31 in ENT was the only expansion I liked because it took the conspiracy angle.
Is he protected, or was he using Starfleet personnel for his own ends? I don’t recall that it ever explicitly shows them officially working together. With Inter Arnim Selim Legis, the Admiral is working with Sloan, not for him or commanding him. A relationship of convenience, not an official one. Similar to when they’re looking for the cure for Odo, it’s not specific people working directly for Section 31, just people who are either working with them out of convenience… or being manipulated similar to Bashir and the Admiral whose name I can’t remember from the aforementioned episode.
That doesn’t speak to an official relationship, just the manipulative one of a parasitic organism pretending to be a mutualistic one.
BASHIR: Captain, is there any word from Starfleet about Sloan or Section 31?
SISKO: There’s no record of a Deputy Director Sloan anywhere in Starfleet. And as for Section 31, that’s a little more complicated. Starfleet Command doesn’t acknowledge its existence, but they don’t deny it either. They simply said they’d look into it and get back to me.
BASHIR: When?
SISKO: They didn’t say.
KIRA: That sounds like a cover up to me.
BASHIR: I can’t believe the Federation condones this kind of activity.
ODO: Personally, I find it hard to believe they wouldn’t. Every other great power has a unit like Section 31. The Romulans have the Tal Shiar, the Cardassians had the Obsidian Order.
When the top brass of Starfleet are covering your ass, you’re an official agent, whether you’re “on the books” or not.
I mean, if you want to turn a grey issue into something completely black and white, sure.
If you want to assume that because you got some dirt on your shoes, you should just throw them out. Even if you just had to step out of the way of a runaway car.
We literally know nothing about the relationship between Section 31 and Starfleet from that exchange other than that one is letting the other get away with shit. That absolutely speaks to a level of corruption and probably desperation (based on everything else going on in the quadrant at the time), but it doesn’t speak to a level of involvement of one with the other.
It’s the same as Paradise Lost… does one admiral and their staff attempting a literal coup. Does that mean Starfleet as a whole is condoning that coup? Should we just throw the whole thing out because of that incident?
Sure, if you think any measure of corruption means that it’s not worth supporting something anymore.
All you’re doing is making a blanket statement about complex situations with limited information.
We have no idea what the exact situation is, that’s kind of the whole point of the Section 31 storyline in DS9. Making any kind of concrete conclusion from it requires significant leaps in logic.
This, it seems like they forgot the original intention as shown in DS9, it’s not an official organization nor anything approaching it, it’s basically just a long standing group carving hiding in Starfleet justifying doing what they want by pointing to a paragraph in the Constitution… Sovereign Citizens with phasers and photon torpedoes anyone?
I fundamentally disagree with how Section 31 has been handled by most writers post-DS9. It should be a conspiracy of like-minded individuals that exists parasitically within Starfleet, not an official (or an “unofficial official” agency). Starfleet already has an intelligence agency, which everyone seemingly forgets about. Section 31 is not an operation being run by them. Section 31 should be treated less like “Starfleet’s CIA”, and more like Bohemian Grove as it exists in the mind of Alex Jones. The only post-DS9 Section 31 stuff that really clicked was, surprising, the ENT subplot of Malcolm being a Section 31 asset, because it understood that it was the kind of conspiracy that embedded itself deep within Starfleet personnel and didn’t flash its ass at the universe.
This trailer does not give me confidence that the treatment of Section 31 as CIA action heroes is turning around.
I agree. When 31 was first introduced, and Sloan explained that Section 31 was sanctioned by Starfleet under Article 14, Section 31 of the Starfleet Charter, the implication was that they were people who misinterpreted or construed a (probably minor) part of the Starfleet Charter and used it to justify damn near anything.
Personally, I hate how Section 31 has been changed to be misunderstood, cool good guy/anti-hero types who are doing the wrong things for the right reason. DS9 had it right with portraying them as the villains within who should be snuffed out because the ends don’t justify the means.
The only current show that hasn’t portrayed them as villains is arguably Lower Decks…
Yes-ish. The characters were villains, but the organization wasn’t necessarily. For instance, in Discovery season 2, Leland and his crew were the villains, but Section 31 was portrayed less as an extremist cabal and more as a misguided morally-grey organization. Less a blight upon the Federation and more an uncomfortable, but integral, part of it.
@setsneedtofeed@lemmy.world captures it well. Instead of being a cabal of extremists doing illegal and immoral things because they think they’re connected to a higher purpose, they’re a semi-official CIA-like organization.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that Section 31 isn’t supposed to be a cool or semi-legitimate organization (with ships, insignia, etc.) but rather shadowy and absolutely beyond the pale of legitimacy where very few can stomach what they do. From an artistic/thematic POV, Section 31 should be there to show us that a good society requires work to maintain and that its undoing can come from within by those claiming to protect it by eschewing that society’s values. In other words, the ends don’t justify the means.
My interpretation was more that they were “hiding in plain sight” at that point in time - Pike was under the impression that they were some kind of special forces, and learned the truth over the course of the season.
I only watched this trailer once, but I didn’t see any insignia, so I think S31’s exact status is still TBD.
Yes it basically “they might be assholes, but at least they are OUR assholes”, which is normalisation of being an asshole
In fairness, Sloan said they were a branch of Starfleet Intelligence with an official designation in his very first appearance on DS9, and nothing that came after that really contradicted him (other than his obvious lies in “Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges”).
Whatever liberties have been taken since then, that wasn’t one of them.
I always took that explanation as the thinnest of lie meant to give an air of legitimacy. Given the methods used to control Bashir, they seemed to clearly be working not just to hide their operational details, but their existence from the legitimate chain of command.
I think a lot of people did, but the episode doesn’t really make the case that it’s a lie - in fact, Sloan is protected at the highest levels of Starfleet Command, which supports the idea that Sloan was being completely truthful when he was trying to recruit Bashir. It’s a legitimate reading of the episode, at any rate.
It could be, but it’s brought us to the point where Section 31 has narratively usurped the role of Starfleet Intelligence in its entirety and has kind of lost the point. Reading S31 as a conspiracy is the smarter play for people in charge of Trek, and I am disappointed that they’ve gone completely the other way. Like I mentioned, the S31 in ENT was the only expansion I liked because it took the conspiracy angle.
Is he protected, or was he using Starfleet personnel for his own ends? I don’t recall that it ever explicitly shows them officially working together. With Inter Arnim Selim Legis, the Admiral is working with Sloan, not for him or commanding him. A relationship of convenience, not an official one. Similar to when they’re looking for the cure for Odo, it’s not specific people working directly for Section 31, just people who are either working with them out of convenience… or being manipulated similar to Bashir and the Admiral whose name I can’t remember from the aforementioned episode.
That doesn’t speak to an official relationship, just the manipulative one of a parasitic organism pretending to be a mutualistic one.
When the top brass of Starfleet are covering your ass, you’re an official agent, whether you’re “on the books” or not.
I mean, if you want to turn a grey issue into something completely black and white, sure.
If you want to assume that because you got some dirt on your shoes, you should just throw them out. Even if you just had to step out of the way of a runaway car.
We literally know nothing about the relationship between Section 31 and Starfleet from that exchange other than that one is letting the other get away with shit. That absolutely speaks to a level of corruption and probably desperation (based on everything else going on in the quadrant at the time), but it doesn’t speak to a level of involvement of one with the other.
It’s the same as Paradise Lost… does one admiral and their staff attempting a literal coup. Does that mean Starfleet as a whole is condoning that coup? Should we just throw the whole thing out because of that incident?
Sure, if you think any measure of corruption means that it’s not worth supporting something anymore.
All I’m doing is accurately describing the way the organization was depicted on DS9.
All you’re doing is making a blanket statement about complex situations with limited information.
We have no idea what the exact situation is, that’s kind of the whole point of the Section 31 storyline in DS9. Making any kind of concrete conclusion from it requires significant leaps in logic.
Hear, hear!!
I realize I’m not adding much value by saying this, but… I still wanted to support this with a comment and not just an upvote.
This, it seems like they forgot the original intention as shown in DS9, it’s not an official organization nor anything approaching it, it’s basically just a long standing group carving hiding in Starfleet justifying doing what they want by pointing to a paragraph in the Constitution… Sovereign Citizens with phasers and photon torpedoes anyone?
You are very correct in everything you wrote. That said… it’s got Sam Richardson so I’m probably going to watch it.
Yes. I hate Section 31. Feels like a justification for the CIA. It’s really sickening.