serious question, is there any chance a large portion of these users are acting in bad faith and don’t actually believe these things because the now threads i see, the more that seems to be the case
They are very agressive, to the point where the slightest disagreement will cause them all to collectively (no pun intended) hound your comment.
Then they complain about leftist infighting.
Lol imagine complaining about straw men “complaining about leftist infighting” while you punch left against someone who isn’t even there. Weak ass shit
I don’t understand the constant liberal need to assume everyone who disagrees with you is acting in bad faith. Not everyone believes the same things as you. If you like, I can explain why I believe the things I do and what works or life experiences led me to those conclusions.
The platform you’re using was designed by Marxist-Leninists, it shouldn’t be surprising to find Marxist-Leninists on here.
Why do you assume everyone arguing with you is a liberal?
In regards to the person I was originally replying to here, because this is a tendency that I notice especially among liberals, and which seems to track with their idealist ideology. They view their position as being “obvious,” “objective” and “rational,” and therefore expect everyone to agree with them unless there is some sort of irregular interference in the “marketplace of ideas,” like foreign subversion. Furthermore, since liberalism is the dominant ideology of the present world, it is easier for people to believe that it is the only thing any reasonable person would believe.
Leftism is comparatively fringe, and also has many different forms of analysis that account for people believing different things. Any leftist should be aware that people who have different material conditions and material interests are likely to arrive at different sets of beliefs. It is difficult to imagine a leftist thinking that anyone who disagrees with them must be disguising their beliefs and motivations, they would have to be paranoid and suspicious of virtually everyone they ever encounter in life. It makes no sense. Furthermore, there are many different leftist ideologies so even if a leftist did expect everyone to be a leftist, it raises the question of, “which tendency?” A Trotskyist and a Maoist will have a substantial number of disagreements with each other.
As for the others, well, because they say lib things and take offense when I talk negatively about liberals. I’m sure some of them style themselves as “anarchists” while supporting liberals and acting and thinking like liberals. Anarchism has some very cool aesthetics, after all.
Perhaps, if they start respecting our labels and bothering to understand what the difference is between a Marxist-Lenininst and a Maoist instead of just blanket labelling everyone to the left of Bernie as a “tankie,” then I’ll consider respecting the difference between self-identified liberals vs anarcho-NATOists instead of labelling them all liberals. But then, if they bothered to learn or understand the things my side actually believes rather than just making shit up about us whole cloth and dismissing us when we try to actually explain our positions, they’d hardly be liberals, would they?
Seeking “freedom” does not mean much without specifying what kind of freedom you seek and in which area.
In the USA, “liberal” is almost synonym with “leftist” since it’s always understood as “social liberalism” which actually relies on a strong government to defend social freedom.
This is an international forum, not an American one.
The reason “liberal” is synonymous with “leftist” in the US is that the left has retreated so ridiculously far. Left anticommunism has been a dismal failure that’s played into the right’s hands. People thought that if they just demonstrated their anticommunist credentials that people would stop accusing them of being “reds” or “pinkos,” but it absolutely has not worked and only emboldened the right to the point that even “liberal” became an accusation, a dirty word, while at the same time hurting and dividing the left.
I don’t accept that, and neither do people outside of the US. A liberal is a supporter of capitalism, liberals are, by definition, right wing.
Really? I’ve never seen a tankie write off anyone as a “Russian bot” or similar. Of course “tankies” recognize that the vast majority of people believe different things.
Calling someone a liberal is not the same as accusing them of acting in bad faith, of misrepresenting what they believe. If someone comes around talking about gassing the Jews, I’m going to call them a fascist and write them off as such, even if they deny the label, and hopefully you would too. Likewise, if someone says stuff that I perceive as liberalism, I’m going to call them a lib - but I’m not going to assume that they’re paid actors in some secret conspiracy who don’t really believe a word of what they’re saying. Those aren’t the same thing at all.
Yes. I don’t know where the notion that tankies don’t do that sort of thing comes from when they do it all the time in their own way. Sure, they’re not accusing anyone of being a Liberal bot sent by Soros because it’s absurd, but they approximate with what they can to discredit who they don’t like. They’re only human.
Literally just explained the difference. Not valuing someone’s opinion is not the same as saying that they must be lying about what they believe because nobody could ever possibly just believe different things from you.
It’s fine if you want to make a distinction, but the pairing along with the outright dismissiveness is precisely what I mean, though. Being dismissive because of branding someone a label is my point, even though the person they were referring to is not liberal–me.
I’m not going to assume that they’re paid actors in some secret conspiracy who don’t really believe a word of what they’re saying
I got called a lib for saying that we don’t have the progressive foundation necessary to elect a third party candidate to President, and that while I don’t agree with the Democrats, Kamala was less bad than Trump.
That’s far from the only time I was called a liberal (derogatory) by an .ml user despite not being a liberal, and not promoting liberal policies.
Calling someone a liberal is not the same as accusing them of acting in bad faith
Did you respond to the wrong comment? At no point have I ever claimed that people on .ml don’t call people libs, so your comment seems like a complete non sequitor.
serious question, is there any chance a large portion of these users are acting in bad faith and don’t actually believe these things because the now threads i see, the more that seems to be the case
They are very agressive, to the point where the slightest disagreement will cause them all to collectively (no pun intended) hound your comment.
Then they complain about leftist infighting.
Lol imagine complaining about straw men “complaining about leftist infighting” while you punch left against someone who isn’t even there. Weak ass shit
I don’t understand the constant liberal need to assume everyone who disagrees with you is acting in bad faith. Not everyone believes the same things as you. If you like, I can explain why I believe the things I do and what works or life experiences led me to those conclusions.
The platform you’re using was designed by Marxist-Leninists, it shouldn’t be surprising to find Marxist-Leninists on here.
I try to discuss stuff with you all in good faith, but its really hard to ngl.
Edit to add: Why do you assume everyone arguing with you is a liberal?
In regards to the person I was originally replying to here, because this is a tendency that I notice especially among liberals, and which seems to track with their idealist ideology. They view their position as being “obvious,” “objective” and “rational,” and therefore expect everyone to agree with them unless there is some sort of irregular interference in the “marketplace of ideas,” like foreign subversion. Furthermore, since liberalism is the dominant ideology of the present world, it is easier for people to believe that it is the only thing any reasonable person would believe.
Leftism is comparatively fringe, and also has many different forms of analysis that account for people believing different things. Any leftist should be aware that people who have different material conditions and material interests are likely to arrive at different sets of beliefs. It is difficult to imagine a leftist thinking that anyone who disagrees with them must be disguising their beliefs and motivations, they would have to be paranoid and suspicious of virtually everyone they ever encounter in life. It makes no sense. Furthermore, there are many different leftist ideologies so even if a leftist did expect everyone to be a leftist, it raises the question of, “which tendency?” A Trotskyist and a Maoist will have a substantial number of disagreements with each other.
As for the others, well, because they say lib things and take offense when I talk negatively about liberals. I’m sure some of them style themselves as “anarchists” while supporting liberals and acting and thinking like liberals. Anarchism has some very cool aesthetics, after all.
Perhaps, if they start respecting our labels and bothering to understand what the difference is between a Marxist-Lenininst and a Maoist instead of just blanket labelling everyone to the left of Bernie as a “tankie,” then I’ll consider respecting the difference between self-identified liberals vs anarcho-NATOists instead of labelling them all liberals. But then, if they bothered to learn or understand the things my side actually believes rather than just making shit up about us whole cloth and dismissing us when we try to actually explain our positions, they’d hardly be liberals, would they?
“liberalism” is a confusing word with 3 different meanings: “economic liberalism”, “classical/conservative liberalism” or “social liberalism”.
Seeking “freedom” does not mean much without specifying what kind of freedom you seek and in which area.
In the USA, “liberal” is almost synonym with “leftist” since it’s always understood as “social liberalism” which actually relies on a strong government to defend social freedom.
This is an international forum, not an American one.
The reason “liberal” is synonymous with “leftist” in the US is that the left has retreated so ridiculously far. Left anticommunism has been a dismal failure that’s played into the right’s hands. People thought that if they just demonstrated their anticommunist credentials that people would stop accusing them of being “reds” or “pinkos,” but it absolutely has not worked and only emboldened the right to the point that even “liberal” became an accusation, a dirty word, while at the same time hurting and dividing the left.
I don’t accept that, and neither do people outside of the US. A liberal is a supporter of capitalism, liberals are, by definition, right wing.
Funny you qualify it as such. I saw that same behavior with the tankies and other ideologies.
Really? I’ve never seen a tankie write off anyone as a “Russian bot” or similar. Of course “tankies” recognize that the vast majority of people believe different things.
Not Russian bots, they like those. Lol I have seen tankies write off people as liberals, funnily enough.
Calling someone a liberal is not the same as accusing them of acting in bad faith, of misrepresenting what they believe. If someone comes around talking about gassing the Jews, I’m going to call them a fascist and write them off as such, even if they deny the label, and hopefully you would too. Likewise, if someone says stuff that I perceive as liberalism, I’m going to call them a lib - but I’m not going to assume that they’re paid actors in some secret conspiracy who don’t really believe a word of what they’re saying. Those aren’t the same thing at all.
“Oh another dumb liberal”
“Liberal opinion disregarded”
Juxtapose the term liberal with tankie for a moment in usage alone.
If being called liberal is interpreted as above, it is likely those are the same sentiments expressed when calling someone or something tankie, no?
Yes. I don’t know where the notion that tankies don’t do that sort of thing comes from when they do it all the time in their own way. Sure, they’re not accusing anyone of being a Liberal bot sent by Soros because it’s absurd, but they approximate with what they can to discredit who they don’t like. They’re only human.
Literally just explained the difference. Not valuing someone’s opinion is not the same as saying that they must be lying about what they believe because nobody could ever possibly just believe different things from you.
It’s fine if you want to make a distinction, but the pairing along with the outright dismissiveness is precisely what I mean, though. Being dismissive because of branding someone a label is my point, even though the person they were referring to is not liberal–me.
I’m glad you don’t, but that’s not what I saw.
I got called a lib for saying that we don’t have the progressive foundation necessary to elect a third party candidate to President, and that while I don’t agree with the Democrats, Kamala was less bad than Trump.
That’s far from the only time I was called a liberal (derogatory) by an .ml user despite not being a liberal, and not promoting liberal policies.
Did you respond to the wrong comment? At no point have I ever claimed that people on .ml don’t call people libs, so your comment seems like a complete non sequitor.
I am not a liberal and communicated that fact. I was called a liberal anyway. That is an accusation of acting in bad faith.
I don’t think there is many bots on lemmy.