Fair enough, i’ll just point out that with such enhanced surveillance it’d be even more difficult than currently(, and ideally impossible,) for people loyal(, or hostile,) to Trump to cheat the election. Thanks for the chat

(i didn’t know that, it’d require more researchs than i did on the claims of each side, they’d perhaps say that the coverage was insufficient).
In my opinion we don’t have anything to lose by strengthening our electoral system, and every accusation is an occasion to improve it, unless you think that it is already failproof, i’ve seen long lists of arguments at the end of 2020, but John Oliver also made three videos on the topic of fraud prior to that, and our side didn’t hesitate to have doubts twice on the results for Bernie Sanders, whether it happened or not, i do think that cheating is a serious possibility and that such claims should be solved by better measures to please the future candidates/incumbents, instead of only relying on censorship(, youtube, facebook, twitter, …). To sum up, he did commit to a peaceful transition, and we don’t have much to lose by implementing an even stronger surveillance of the procedure for the next elections.

You’re evidently right, but many articles for the 2021 elections(, 1, 2, 3, …, including the one cited), said that it has been 15 years since the EU sent observers.

In any case i would like to emphasised that this debate isn’t useful : even if westerners systematically sent observers they would still claim that the results are illegitimate because of the overall process(, which deserve some explanations/debates because our own system is far from perfect, and we’re blending the consequences&causes of the sanctions, etc.). I should have deleted this post like i intended at first once i realized that.

A few more minutes of research wielded these results :

• EU won’t send observervation mission in Bangladesh : https://www.thedailystar.net/news/bangladesh/news/eu-wont-send-observeration-mission-3424326
• The United States, European Union, France and Japan say they have no plans to send electoral observers or to provide assistance to Cambodia : https://www.rfa.org/english/news/cambodia/election-international-observers-03312023140751.html
• The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) will not send observers to Russia’s upcoming elections for the first time in nearly three decades : https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-elections-osce-observers/31393760.html(, “The insistence of the Russian authorities on limiting the number of observers we could send without any clear pandemic-related restrictions has unfortunately made today’s step unavoidable. The OSCE had been invited to observe the Russian elections, but the number of allowed observers was later restricted to 60 due to what Russian authorities cited as the deteriorating pandemic situation in the country. (…) The OSCE had assessed earlier this year that it needed 80 long-term and 420 short-term observers.”)
• The European Union has scrapped plans to send observers to a parliamentary election in Ethiopia next month : https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/eu-scraps-plan-observe-ethiopia-election-2021-05-04(, criticism of their official reasons here https://euobserver.com/opinion/152293 : « The International Republican Institute and National Democratic Institute sent missions to observe, and the African Union sent 120 observers. Yet the EU decided against sending a delegation, despite promises earlier in the year to do so. (…) The African Union’s observer team has praised the election, as have ambassadors from Sweden and Denmark. », that’s exactly an example of what i’m talking about, with false excuses/pretexts.

I didn’t write that we refused to send international observers to Russia, but that « i’ve read such suspicions about Russia and Iran, we even showed videos of a ballon in front of the c.c.t.v. for Russia », despite « the reasoning that when you’re so overwhelmingly popular there’s no need to miscount the votes in your favor ».
It appears that we did send international observers(, until 2021), but my point is that it wasn’t necessary, yet we’re still showing suspicions(, e.g. the balloon in front of a c.c.t.v. to take an example).

I’d just like to end by saying once again that this whole debate is pointless because it doesn’t change anything in the end, whether we systematically refused to send observers, or always sent them while accusing the whole “democratic” process instead(, it’s apparently in-between, but much more the latter than the former, contrary to what i initially thought).
I should have deleted this post from the start like i first intended once i realised, in the selftext, that « In the end sanctions would stay in place so it wouldn’t be useful in any way, and doesn’t matter, i should probably delete this post but i’m leaving it in the off-chance that some find an interest in it. »

Sorry if you felt that i wasted your time.

I can’t find this source again(, when they said that they lacked time to send observers), it wasn’t talked much at the time, but i’m positive it happened, here’s an example of refusal for 2020 though : https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-eu-says-it-wont-send-observers-to-monitor-venezuelan-election-due-to/
Apparently, they’ve agreed to send observers in 2021 : https://www.postguam.com/the_globe/world/maduro-electoral-observers-from-eu-delegation-of-spies/article_8df8438a-50d1-11ec-b8be-13b5cf9ed4e5.html
The last time was in 2015, once again at the request of the venezuelan government : https://www.eeas.europa.eu/node/26227_en
Some people say that the government won’t ask again in 2024 : https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/venezuela-will-not-allow-eu-election-observers-2024-vote-lawmaker-2023-07-13/
But i’ve clearly overestimated the impact : Venezuela will still be sanctioned and the public opinion will still consider that they’re miscounting the votes. Allowing international observers or not doesn’t change anything in the end, we’ll only be satisfied once the socialist revolution is out, and will continue to accept unsatisfying electoral conditions with our allies(, e.g., in Africa).
You’ll need to read pro-venezuelans medias to see the other point of view.

As for Russia, you’ll mostly find articles saying that his disapproval rate is at an all-time high, but this kind of article, or statista, are confirming that he’s one of the most popular president in the world. I could easily find more sources for this, so the reasoning is that when you’re so overwhelmingly popular there’s no need to miscount the votes in your favor :

Are you unsatisfied with the sources or my conclusions ?

If he’s re-elected then perhaps that international observers with an absence of electronic voting could be approved by both sides and prevent such doubts from being formulated again. Observers may be considered humiliating for a great power but could perhaps be generalised to every representative republic, if only in order to prevent such excuses ?

Yeah, i know, i’m paid a lot

But don’t you find it interesting to challenge our preconceptions ? To learn how to defend our beliefs ?

I think i could almost defend all of our declared enemies if you’re uneasy with Russia, and criticize almost all of our allies. In the end i believe that we(sterners) are the one launching hostilities, and that a world peace is desirable&possible.

But if you don’t mind i’d like to try convincing someone that our point of view is erroneous, even if i won’t insist if you don’t feel like talking about that.

Do you know why we consider that some states are illegitimate “regimes” ? Do they deserve it for human rights or are they just annoying because they’re opposing our hegemonic expansion/uniformisation(, first anti-communist, now anti-islamist, then whatever else survived the colonization) ?
It doesn’t seem that we’ll be able to play the policemen of the world for long, yet inequalities between countries aren’t being reduced, since they’re increasing then perhaps that our control could go on for centuries ?

(And on your argument about legitimacy it may be more honest to talk about what precedes the votes rather than the votes themselves if the latter were counted correctly, no ?)

I’m glad to talk with someone “normal” like you, it’s actually becoming quite rare on Lemmy :)

Would you mind giving me a single thing that Russia has and we have not ? Media control ? Political prisoners ? Excessive laws ? Unsatisfactory election process ? What else ?

Keep in mind that the recent arrests were done in times of war, not only under a ukrainian pressure but quite a lot of other stuff like sanctions, covert actions, a blown-up gazoduc, …, Ukraine did hundreds of times worse and it’s not always justified, but surely you can easily find other proofs of Russia’s dictatorship to make me see the light ? I would unironically feel indebted to you if you took the time to correct me from my misconceptions, and we could take another country if you prefer.

Our media are controlled by capitalists(, except public&alternative medias).

We have a long list of political prisoners, it doesn’t stop at J.Assange, we’re also wiretapped among other measures to prevent any revolution.

We have laws against extremists or domestic terrorists, also against illegal speeches, more and more on the Internet. Could be worse, isn’t going to be better apparently.

Please tell me what you’re thinking about that makes them a dictatorship and not us.

Because the votes are counted in a wrong way, or because he got rid of the opposition, or because he’s controlling the medias ? The first one is false, even western surveys confirmed his support, but the second and third one could be debated, yet it gets interesting since we could throw the same accusations at our own countries(, it’s very difficult to launch a new political party in France since you need an agreement from hundreds of mayors who reserve them to mainstream candidates, and almost impossible to be known without at least a bit of support from mainstream(legacy) medias, Internet could perhaps change that one day but we’re not (t)here yet).

I’m 100% sure for Venezuela and could find you the source, Europe said they didn’t have time despite being asked more than 6 months prior to the elections(, and still having 1-2 months ahead of them).
For Syria i’m almost certain, but i think that i could find the same for Cuba, probably Zimbabwe and in any case i’ve read such suspicions about Russia and Iran, we even showed videos of a ballon in front of the c.c.t.v. for Russia, even if the surveys proved that V.Putin’s support was/is legitimate, on which country would you like sources ?
In general, every government qualified as a “regime” is considered as cheating at elections, i don’t see an exception.

Thanks ? Seems like i should repeat what i wrote in regard to your advice/conclusion.

I’m 32.

Throw me a few arguments if you want to continue, otherwise thanks for the chat.

Yup, Microsoft has made criticizable choices and i’m pro-Linux, but :

• I would need to document myself on this topic ;
• Conspiracies about his links with covid(, harder to find on the Internet, i remember that they made a simulation for a global coronavirus pandemic ~6 months prior(, here, but there’s also a 90-pages long pdf also written at the end of 2019 written in 2017, and unrelated to event 201 and whatever conspiracy there may be(, i didn’t take a look at these theories), but interesting nonetheless, advising the government for censorship among other things,) among other weird coincidences,) may be partially true for all i know, but in any case he’s at worst a co-conspirator and not the instigator(, if he played a role at all, which i still doubt/‘don’t really believe’, contrary to intelligence services who are much more used to biological weapons, perhaps as horrific as atomic ones, and intersideral wars will destroy whole planets if we haven’t solved wars until then(, while keeping our diversity since it’s desirable&possible)), i’ll pass on the dishonesty of “our world in data” since he’s following the standard and isn’t an exception there(, statista is worse[, edit to clarify on my suspicions on this standard : i was thinking of the number of deaths probably overestimated(, e.g., the flu stopped killing) ; but also of very subjective personal choices like how a growing inequality isn’t emphasised here, or relevant indicators to observe neo-colonialism ; or the choice of g.d.p. as an indicator because, e.g., rent inflates it and make it seem as if capitalism produces more g.d.p. ; and mostly overall suspicions towards a certain vision of economy that should perhaps not be considered as the orthodoxy, if only for the numerous negative externalities, the ‘lucrative properties’/‘passive income’, and the lack of democratic control of our workplace, things aren’t perfect and experimentations of theoretical improvements should be allowed outside&inside of our borders/control, technologies changed everything, i deny the superiority of capitalism for bringing innovations(, R&D is a waste of money when you can simply copy and focus on communication, our generations are breed in this atmosphere and despite being more wealthy aren’t really the child of our past nobles, we had it for centuries and then lost it)]) ;
• His expense of wealth(, even if he’s wealthier than when he started donating,) are something i can only clap for. Since it is the only thing i vaguely documented myself on, Bill Gates is among the billionaires who spent their stolen wealth in the best manner, yes, i feel that i can only applaud.

I’d have preferred if citizens, religious, or public organisations filled this role, but they’re not powerful enough(, states excluded, and some humanitarian associations, who always lack donations), so i’m glad that some capitalists fight against preventable diseases/deaths in poorexploited countries, it could be worse since our “morals” are celebrating the “virtue” of capitalists’ selfishness, so double yay for B.Gates, W.Buffet, and other philanthropists, unironically(, because even if it’s not ideal it could be worse and their donation/wealth/power is needed).
It seems like an irrefutable point of view to claim that you can rank humans/billionaires according to the virtue of their deeds, and that putting all of them on the same scale is dishonest, just take random examples like the Walton family among others, they’re your typical billionaires, others are even worse since they’re supporting political/media/educational/… views increasing the economic inequalities in their favor, or even the so-called “anarcho”-capitalism, we’re far from our previous ideals of equality(, social reproduction/determinism : private education, inheritance, …). So yeah, i unapologetically rejoice that some of them are using their stolen wealth/power for greater causes.

One is a government punishing you for saying something. The other is a company saying, “not on my platform.”

Oh, ok, i could eventually agree with this definition.

My own definition is that you can moderate without censoring(, kinda like you can neutralize without killing), even if most social medias aren’t using things like warnings before censoring, or overall participation of the (unpaid )mods in the forums to guide newcomers, straighten flamewars by words, answer questions, register complaints and advices, create special events, bots on discord, and as many collective events than can be thought of, almost to the point of being more like a supervisor than a moderator. If such a distinction makes sense a moderator would be between a censor and a supervisor, a manager would be yet another word but i could mix these four into the same word, censorship is only the last resort of the moderator, it’s usually enough to point out the mistake for the user to amend h.im.er.self by acknowledging h.er.is faults and leaving the community or keeping the rules more in mind, it shouldn’t be a surprise ban but that’s commonplace on reddit, it’s not my philosophy but w/e, i’ve talked about it with 2-3 mods in the past and they don’t agree, it’s taking them a lot of time as well so they’re not thinking twice nor engaging.

That was a long introduction, hope it wasn’t too boring, i’ll take your definition and say that unfortunately the government is using the word moderation in its speeches and is making laws to censor illegal speeches on the internet, like defense of what they’ll choose to call terrorists, or denial of what they’ll call genocide, or the counter-informations that they may falsely deem disinformation(, covid could be an example, some conspiracies as well), E.Musk is annoying because the Community Notes also debunk our disinformation, and i’ll only mention astroturfing.
Do you want a short excerpt of my long list of examples of government censorship ?
Furthermore, what’s the censorship by companies if not the censorship by the wealthy/powerful for written(“legacy”) medias ? Don’t you think they have enough power like that. States should protect us from their censorship by allowing us some rights, like a proper explanation before being banned or the right to keep a copy of their data afterwards, or not i’m against government interference in one way or another(, except if our declared enemies can use this against us, but we’re going beyond that and are clearly aiming to prevent people from speaking uncomfortable/convincing proofs, WikiLeaks is emblematic of a larger movement, and the “cancel culture” has destroyed careers of some people for false reasons, our governments don’t trust the population to make their own conclusions.

What’s the difference ?

But if you were born in option 2, and lived all your life in Paradise, wouldn’t you want to experiment something else than this homogeneous unity, if only to know yourself, to distinguish yourself from your equals ?
If you don’t follow the thought, that’s because you’re asking for the disappearance of all evils, a perfect world will have nobody better than someone else, we’ll all reach the maximum conceivable potential, every single being would be as absolutely perfect as the laws of the universe allows a being to be.
That’s not what you want, you don’t want the absolute end/perfection but something in between, we’ll get there, and it could realistically be argued that this halfway towards perfection is long behind us, that’s the goal but i’m glad we still have stuff to do instead of an aimless/useless existence in a perfect world.

Furthermore suffering is rarely pointless, please pick an example it’d be less theoretical, here’s an old comment if you’d like to see a few of them in the first paragraphs.
If carnivores didn’t killed vegetarians then they would destroy everything, and if trees didn’t die they wouldn’t let enough place for new generations, but eating/killing stays a bad thing, which is why it should be avoided whenever possible(, e.g., not to die ourselves). We don’t live in the best possible world, but the trip may be more enjoyable than having reached the ultimate destination millenias ago.

(It’s out of topic but the universe is so big and it’s so easy to spy on planets by building trillions of automated probes that it’s weird we’re still feeling/being free from external/alien influences, w/e 🤷‍♂️)

How much better would be enough ? You’ll always have something less good than the Maximum/Perfection, until you have an homogeneous Goodness.
Fortunately we’re allowed to improve, that’s all i could ask for, unfortunately the trip/improvement/growth is necessarily finite, you’re asking to start at the end.

Twitter was increasing its censorship(, do you need proof for that affirmation ?), would you trust the government to own the “townsquare”/“marketplace of ideas” ? I would only trust a government truly owned by its citizens, in a real/direct democracy with efficient counterpowers.
He had many more ideas in order to use these 40 billions, but thought that twitter/‘freedom of expression’ is worth it(, that’s what he’s repeating, since you won’t believe in his good intentions what’s your opinion on such a huge loss a money ?), now everyone tries to ruin twitter, and you support them, because he’s not censoring enough for you apparently, is that the reason ? Bad nazis that shouldn’t be allowed to spread hate ? Can’t you see that our governments want to keep their control on the narrative, or do you just find “normal” that our newspapers agree between them on our foreign policy(, just as the medias of our unfree enemies brainwash their citizens(, yet we’ve strangely never read them once)) ?
A journalist who’s “anti-system” isn’t deemed acceptable for the owners of the (legacy )medias, hence s.he/we only have alternative medias and some fringe portions of the Internet left(, for now), seems worth fighting for.

All billionaires are thieves but it’s hard to argue that the state or citizens would have accomplished as much as his teams.
He’s the billionaire who did the most, why should he also be the first to be criticised, it doesn’t make sense he should be the last.

I expected at least a downvote though :'(, am i becoming mainstream ?

I can debate in favor of E.Musk or religions if you’re interested(, my computer crashed a week ago so i’ve got time for now), Internet is there for us to learn after all, there’s not much point for me to stay in Lemmygrad(, yeah, i’m also a communist, too many defects for a single little boy).

And yeah, this world is infuriating, not funny(, but be happy if you want to, i’ll stay angry).

Untold suffering ? Do you realize how easily everything could be worse ? How lucky you are to live in this place and time ?
How much closer to perfection is enough ? What are the main criticisms you have in mind so that i could explain why they’re usually necessary for a greater good, and usually the responsability of humans and not the laws of physics/mathematics/logic/Nature ?

Funny because i don’t think you understand my point of view either, especially if you’re equating all christians with literalists, if you read the Bible you’ll be forced to interpret it allegorically, which is why being raised in a nonreligious environment doesn’t prevent from having misconceptions either.

But sincere thanks for your polite answer though.