Caesar’s note was very true to his characterisation in the game I feel. Looking forward to seeing for the Culkmiseter next season, the ‘Caesar’s palace’ joke was good
And whoever I was arguing with last week that Hank was working for the Enclave not House Ha! in your face told ya
Cooper getting arrested by HUAC for being a commie after giving the president cold fusion was great. Shouts out to the youtuber I watched last week who predicted barb and coop’s divorce was a show
Not sure how I feel about Coop getting dues ex machnica’d of the pole last ep by the Perlman super mutant if they weren’t going to show up this ep. But obviously setting things up for next season, seems that the ‘phase 2’ Steph initiated is something to do with FEV. Maybe the resident’s of Vault 33 get FEVed and join up with Perlman and his mutant crusade and we’ll see Chet and the rest a super-mutants. And I guess whatever Hank’s agents are up to involves this in some way(docile mind-controlled super-mutants as the next step for humanity?)
Really hope they re-design the super-mutants for next season, I know we only got a literal glimpse of Perlman but he really just looked like a big dude in make-up, I want them gnarly looking like the talking heads in F1&2
Also what was up with House’s big screen being [No Signal] towards the end, was his consciousness ‘in’ the pip-boy Coop left in the cryogenics area? you’d think he’d be broadcasting to it from the big terminal rather than actually moving to the smaller device
I wonder if next season will still be Nevada focused and feature the Legion/NCR conflict heavily, with the enclave, House and mutants getting involved in it, or if we’ll follow Coop going to going to Colorado(which could provide some interesting stuff not super tied to the games as the state hasn’t been shown in a canon game(its featured in the non-canon fallout tactics and the unreleased Van Buren)). Probably both and they’ll link up somehow
As for the post-credit scene, why is Dayne still following Quintus? its not really realistic to have that Brotherhood chapter have the resources to build a liberty prime seeing as they we’re having to call on the Yosemite and Coronado chapters for help, although maybe the Nevada chapter won the little BoS civil war and absorbed the surviving members/resources of the other’s, although Quintus’ speech seems to imply otherwise, but I guess there’s could be a half-built or deactivated one somewhere in Nevada, as the picture of house earlier in the reason seeming to appear in front of the legs of a LP could imply
Anyone if this Is this supposed to be a specific real-world location?
Anyone if this Is this supposed to be a specific real-world location?
According to my fast glancing over people comments on the internet it’s in the rockies in colorado (people are theorising NORAD) but the building is based on the brooklyn army terminal in, well, brooklyn.
Thanks, NORAD makes sense as an Enclave base but you’d think they’d use Cheyenne mountain(unless that is supposed to be it) as its close enough to the events of the show ig
whoever I was arguing with last week that Hank was working for the Enclave not House Ha!
That was me and I am still not sure it’s enclave he is working with. Also wasn’t the mind control project at least begun by house? Maybe they diverged in their own interest be he at least was at one point working with him.
Also that Caesars Palace joke was fucking hilarious indeed. Also also I posted a similar thread last night.
I guess you could still debate it, but the enclave branded pip-boy in his keepsake box, his radio message going to the enclave base, chinches it for me at least
Perhaps he was a house agent who diverted, but as I was saying last week his actions in the meeting between Barb and the House body-double screamed ‘Enclave spy’ to me. And you’d think a house agent would be a little more protected from being drugged, and then seduced by a Canadian maid within House’s own casino
Yes House at least initially developed the mind-control tech, similarly Vault-Tec invented the cold fusion diode, that doesn’t preclude the Enclave having spies in both organisations observing the R&D incorporating any useful tech into their own plans if they can get their hands on it
Ah I didn’t see your thread when making this one my b
Yeah easy to miss, she got it after making the deal with Betty(as it was in Bettie’s/formerly Hank’s overseer office) to trade the box for access to their water, during their meeting that Woody eavesdropped on
Caesar’s note was very true to his characterisation in the game I feel. Looking forward to seeing for the Culkmiseter next season, the ‘Caesar’s palace’ joke was good
No it isn’t. It’s the opposite of what Caesar stands for. It is making an outside criticism of the legion into a literal thing and by doing so missing both the point of Edward Sallow and the legion. And in doing so it minimises the impact of the legion as a vehicle for criticism and their effectiveness as villains.
Edward Sallow does not see the legion as a vanity project that will die with him, he sees himself as building a genuine legacy that will last the same way Rome did, he is not just trolling. He and the people around him genuinely think they are doing people a favor when they invade a people’s land, slaughter their men, burn their livestocks, and take their women as slaves.
The fact that he is the only one who sees the project as becoming a beacon of enlightenment and civilisation is a whole thing. Not even the true believers in the cause of the legion believe in it the way he does. He believes that the conquest of vegas will allow them to transition into becoming the toga wearing kind of romans, a genuine civilising force of the wasteland built up around a totalitarian and powerful centralised state, the people around him believe that the legion as it is is the ideal in stark contrast which means that his dream of a legacy cannot exist, hence the relevance of the whole brain cancer narrative.
Have to agree to disagree, imo he’s portrayed as a megalomaniacal asshole and we don’t really get any inner monologue details from him so saying he genuinely believes those things rather than using them as propaganda and being primarily motivated by self enrichment and power hunger isn’t supported by in game stuff anymore than my opinions are
the in-game Legion co-founder Joshua Graham is of the opinion:
I think only Caesar could lead the Legion, I’ve never met anyone who could take his place. I couldn’t. I never had the mind for logistics. No the Legion dies with him
Which while proving neither of us conclusively right supports my opinion more than yours(i.e. if Graham could come to that conclusion so could Salo)
We know what he says though, and he always speaks about his lasting legacy and the potential for the legion to last. The idea that he would believe the legion would die with him is totally incongruent with his characterisation and lessens the impact of the criticism levied by his former partner. If he is fully aware that this is a doomed project he just did for the lulz, then Graham seeing the legion as such is less meaningful.
What I say is supported by the text of Edward Sallow’s dialogue. You’re assuming that he truly believes what his critics say, which doesn’t really fit with a guy doing an unironic rome cosplay.
And we don’t really get any inner monologue details from him so saying he genuinely believes those things rather than using them as propaganda and being primarily motivated by self enrichment and power hunger
If he’s just a con-man and nobody believes in this project, then the tragedy of the horror stories of the true believers in the legion cause cease to be impact. The praetorian guard who speaks of his cultural legacy being annihilated and his family being erased and spread to the winds ceases being a tragic story of the nature of imperalism and becomes a comical (but not actually funny) story about a con man, and the guy who briefly has to abandon the tough guy act to weep for the story of what the legion did to his entire way of being ceases to be meaningful.
It also reduces the impact of you going all the way through the story seeing the horrors of the legion before finally facing someone who genuinely argues for the necessity of the legion using what the writers thought was genuine philosophically sound arguments.
If Edward Sallow doesn’t believe what he says, then he isn’t nearly as interesting.
Again I don’t think its confirmed by anything canon one way or another
But imo his past as a member of a far-left mutual aid org and very deliberate choice to use the Roman Empire as inspiration for a culture which could be a far stronger military force, and far crueller culture than the former Arizona tribals were, leading directly to his own personal enrichment points more to a self-aware and cynical interpretation of his motavations
And I don’t necessarily think it has to be black and white, he may have wished the Legion to live on as a stable entity after his death, but facts like him not appointing a successor(or some senate like structure) that could replace him when he knew he almost certainly going to die from his brain tumour in the near future point more towards him being a megalomaniac who believed no one would be able to lead the ‘magnificent’ society he’d built, after his inevitable death
If he’s just a con-man and nobody believes in this project, then the tragedy of the horror stories of the true believers in the legion cause cease to be impact.
I don’t agree, even if Creaser himself is cynically motivated those true believers are still true believers in the project as he’s presented it in public to them, and as they understand it
Again I don’t think its confirmed by anything canon one way or another
Again. We have the statements of the man himself, his followers and his formers followers, and the themes of the narrative presented this far on one side and… “Nothing says it isn’t true” on the other.
If Edward Sallow doesn’t believe and Graham knows then the entire legion is just a prank and Grahame critiques aren’t sober considerations bought on in the wake of his experiences Spoken as he attempts to atone through flawed means but him talking about that time he pulled an epic prank.
Graham isn’t a man who after his very lowest point reconsidered everything he was to return to the faith of his youth tainted by the horrors he perpetrated, but a dick who did a prank and is doing another one.
The people speaking of the ways tbe horrors of the legion have impacted them as if they were a favor aren’t sober and horrifying critiques of cultural imperialism and a reframing of “They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace.” In the context of fallout but just an unfunny joke.
It renders the point of legion characters nothing, it isn’t supported textually and it doesnt add anything. It just seems like you dont like the legion and therefore they must be illegitimate. Which Imo is a less scathing critique than if they are legitimate.
But imo his past as a member of a far-left mutual aid org and very deliberate choice to use the Roman Empire as inspiration for a culture which could be a far stronger military force, and far crueller culture than the former Arizona tribals were, leading directly to his own personal enrichment points more to a self-aware and cynical interpretation of his motavations
This renders his appeals to actual legitimate (or at least legitimate as far as the writers were concerned) philosophy entirely meaningless.
The scene where you meet the leaders of the raiding faction behind the most horrifying things you have seen and he starts quoting hegel and genuinely arguing his case becomes a farce and meaningless. If he didn’t belive, why would he need to justify it to an outsider?
He’s mussolini, he’s all the national syndicalist who historically decided to adopt far right ideologies rooted in their former leftist frameworks.
Or… he’s just doing a prank.
Some of my thoughts:
spoiler
Caesar’s note was very true to his characterisation in the game I feel. Looking forward to seeing for the Culkmiseter next season, the ‘Caesar’s palace’ joke was good
And whoever I was arguing with last week that Hank was working for the Enclave not House Ha! in your face told ya
Cooper getting arrested by HUAC for being a commie after giving the president cold fusion was great. Shouts out to the youtuber I watched last week who predicted barb and coop’s divorce was a show
Not sure how I feel about Coop getting dues ex machnica’d of the pole last ep by the Perlman super mutant if they weren’t going to show up this ep. But obviously setting things up for next season, seems that the ‘phase 2’ Steph initiated is something to do with FEV. Maybe the resident’s of Vault 33 get FEVed and join up with Perlman and his mutant crusade and we’ll see Chet and the rest a super-mutants. And I guess whatever Hank’s agents are up to involves this in some way(docile mind-controlled super-mutants as the next step for humanity?)
Really hope they re-design the super-mutants for next season, I know we only got a literal glimpse of Perlman but he really just looked like a big dude in make-up, I want them gnarly looking like the talking heads in F1&2
Also what was up with House’s big screen being [No Signal] towards the end, was his consciousness ‘in’ the pip-boy Coop left in the cryogenics area? you’d think he’d be broadcasting to it from the big terminal rather than actually moving to the smaller device
I wonder if next season will still be Nevada focused and feature the Legion/NCR conflict heavily, with the enclave, House and mutants getting involved in it, or if we’ll follow Coop going to going to Colorado(which could provide some interesting stuff not super tied to the games as the state hasn’t been shown in a canon game(its featured in the non-canon fallout tactics and the unreleased Van Buren)). Probably both and they’ll link up somehow
As for the post-credit scene, why is Dayne still following Quintus? its not really realistic to have that Brotherhood chapter have the resources to build a liberty prime seeing as they we’re having to call on the Yosemite and Coronado chapters for help, although maybe the Nevada chapter won the little BoS civil war and absorbed the surviving members/resources of the other’s, although Quintus’ speech seems to imply otherwise, but I guess there’s could be a half-built or deactivated one somewhere in Nevada, as the picture of house earlier in the reason seeming to appear in front of the legs of a LP could imply
Anyone if this Is this supposed to be a specific real-world location?
According to my fast glancing over people comments on the internet it’s in the rockies in colorado (people are theorising NORAD) but the building is based on the brooklyn army terminal in, well, brooklyn.
Thanks, NORAD makes sense as an Enclave base but you’d think they’d use Cheyenne mountain(unless that is supposed to be it) as its close enough to the events of the show ig
Yeah Cheyenne is also where the presidential doomsday bunker is (fallout and irl)
And don’t forget the whole top-secret Stargate program.
The presidential doomsday bunker in Fallout is an oil rig in the pacific.
Vault 0 is in Cheyenne mountain which is still the original presidential bunker but also where one of the “control” vaults is.
That was me and I am still not sure it’s enclave he is working with. Also wasn’t the mind control project at least begun by house? Maybe they diverged in their own interest be he at least was at one point working with him.
Also that Caesars Palace joke was fucking hilarious indeed. Also also I posted a similar thread last night.
https://hexbear.net/post/7551143
I guess you could still debate it, but the enclave branded pip-boy in his keepsake box, his radio message going to the enclave base, chinches it for me at least
Perhaps he was a house agent who diverted, but as I was saying last week his actions in the meeting between Barb and the House body-double screamed ‘Enclave spy’ to me. And you’d think a house agent would be a little more protected from being drugged, and then seduced by a Canadian maid within House’s own casino
Yes House at least initially developed the mind-control tech, similarly Vault-Tec invented the cold fusion diode, that doesn’t preclude the Enclave having spies in both organisations observing the R&D incorporating any useful tech into their own plans if they can get their hands on it
Ah I didn’t see your thread when making this one my b
I didn’t make the connection to the pip boy being his when steph opened it. Good catch.
Yeah easy to miss, she got it after making the deal with Betty(as it was in Bettie’s/formerly Hank’s overseer office) to trade the box for access to their water, during their meeting that Woody eavesdropped on
No it isn’t. It’s the opposite of what Caesar stands for. It is making an outside criticism of the legion into a literal thing and by doing so missing both the point of Edward Sallow and the legion. And in doing so it minimises the impact of the legion as a vehicle for criticism and their effectiveness as villains. Edward Sallow does not see the legion as a vanity project that will die with him, he sees himself as building a genuine legacy that will last the same way Rome did, he is not just trolling. He and the people around him genuinely think they are doing people a favor when they invade a people’s land, slaughter their men, burn their livestocks, and take their women as slaves.
The fact that he is the only one who sees the project as becoming a beacon of enlightenment and civilisation is a whole thing. Not even the true believers in the cause of the legion believe in it the way he does. He believes that the conquest of vegas will allow them to transition into becoming the toga wearing kind of romans, a genuine civilising force of the wasteland built up around a totalitarian and powerful centralised state, the people around him believe that the legion as it is is the ideal in stark contrast which means that his dream of a legacy cannot exist, hence the relevance of the whole brain cancer narrative.
Have to agree to disagree, imo he’s portrayed as a megalomaniacal asshole and we don’t really get any inner monologue details from him so saying he genuinely believes those things rather than using them as propaganda and being primarily motivated by self enrichment and power hunger isn’t supported by in game stuff anymore than my opinions are
the in-game Legion co-founder Joshua Graham is of the opinion:
Which while proving neither of us conclusively right supports my opinion more than yours(i.e. if Graham could come to that conclusion so could Salo)
We know what he says though, and he always speaks about his lasting legacy and the potential for the legion to last. The idea that he would believe the legion would die with him is totally incongruent with his characterisation and lessens the impact of the criticism levied by his former partner. If he is fully aware that this is a doomed project he just did for the lulz, then Graham seeing the legion as such is less meaningful.
What I say is supported by the text of Edward Sallow’s dialogue. You’re assuming that he truly believes what his critics say, which doesn’t really fit with a guy doing an unironic rome cosplay.
If he’s just a con-man and nobody believes in this project, then the tragedy of the horror stories of the true believers in the legion cause cease to be impact. The praetorian guard who speaks of his cultural legacy being annihilated and his family being erased and spread to the winds ceases being a tragic story of the nature of imperalism and becomes a comical (but not actually funny) story about a con man, and the guy who briefly has to abandon the tough guy act to weep for the story of what the legion did to his entire way of being ceases to be meaningful. It also reduces the impact of you going all the way through the story seeing the horrors of the legion before finally facing someone who genuinely argues for the necessity of the legion using what the writers thought was genuine philosophically sound arguments.
If Edward Sallow doesn’t believe what he says, then he isn’t nearly as interesting.
Again I don’t think its confirmed by anything canon one way or another
But imo his past as a member of a far-left mutual aid org and very deliberate choice to use the Roman Empire as inspiration for a culture which could be a far stronger military force, and far crueller culture than the former Arizona tribals were, leading directly to his own personal enrichment points more to a self-aware and cynical interpretation of his motavations
And I don’t necessarily think it has to be black and white, he may have wished the Legion to live on as a stable entity after his death, but facts like him not appointing a successor(or some senate like structure) that could replace him when he knew he almost certainly going to die from his brain tumour in the near future point more towards him being a megalomaniac who believed no one would be able to lead the ‘magnificent’ society he’d built, after his inevitable death
I don’t agree, even if Creaser himself is cynically motivated those true believers are still true believers in the project as he’s presented it in public to them, and as they understand it
Again. We have the statements of the man himself, his followers and his formers followers, and the themes of the narrative presented this far on one side and… “Nothing says it isn’t true” on the other.
If Edward Sallow doesn’t believe and Graham knows then the entire legion is just a prank and Grahame critiques aren’t sober considerations bought on in the wake of his experiences Spoken as he attempts to atone through flawed means but him talking about that time he pulled an epic prank. Graham isn’t a man who after his very lowest point reconsidered everything he was to return to the faith of his youth tainted by the horrors he perpetrated, but a dick who did a prank and is doing another one.
The people speaking of the ways tbe horrors of the legion have impacted them as if they were a favor aren’t sober and horrifying critiques of cultural imperialism and a reframing of “They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace.” In the context of fallout but just an unfunny joke.
It renders the point of legion characters nothing, it isn’t supported textually and it doesnt add anything. It just seems like you dont like the legion and therefore they must be illegitimate. Which Imo is a less scathing critique than if they are legitimate.
This renders his appeals to actual legitimate (or at least legitimate as far as the writers were concerned) philosophy entirely meaningless. The scene where you meet the leaders of the raiding faction behind the most horrifying things you have seen and he starts quoting hegel and genuinely arguing his case becomes a farce and meaningless. If he didn’t belive, why would he need to justify it to an outsider?
He’s mussolini, he’s all the national syndicalist who historically decided to adopt far right ideologies rooted in their former leftist frameworks. Or… he’s just doing a prank.