This arbitrary timeline doesn’t help. All slavery is bad.
It also doesn’t help applying our current views and ideals on the past. I don’t know when the cutoff is, but at some point we have to say “it was a different time and therefor acceptable” not necessarily forgiving them, but at least acknowledging that it was “acceptable.”
“I’d rather whataboutism than admit that the country I live in, the one I’m attached to because I’ve been “loving” it like the rest of the American cult, is simply pure evil. Fuck black people, fuck the Natives that suffered my ancestors, my feelings are hurt!”
“I’d rather whataboutism than admit that the country I live in, the one I’m attached to because I’ve been “loving” it like the rest of the American cult, is simply pure evil. Fuck black people, fuck the Natives that suffered my ancestors, my feelings are hurt!”
I’m not American, so I’ll just ignore the first sentence. The 2nd sentence is on another lavel, as I haven’t attacked black people, native people, or their ancestors or my feelings.
I’m not American, so I’ll just ignore the first sentence. The 2nd sentence is on another lavel, as I haven’t attacked black people, native people, or their ancestors or my feelings.
Yeah, so the original post is clearly about the US and may require some US specific context to understand. What you’re doing is equivalent to me going into a thread in “Ich el” and complaining that a German language joke about German society (that I don’t actually understand) is flawed for not including Brazil. Or going to a “Black Lives Matter “ protest with an “All Lives Matter “ sign.
Everyone is welcome in the conversation but when multiple people are telling you that you don’t understand what’s going on and are being offensive, take the hint and try listening more and talking less for a bit. We all know that there has been slavery in many different systems in many different countries. This post was not about that. Everyone isn’t knowledgeable enough to make insightful posts about that (myself included).
I happen to know enough about the US to assert: the US currently has some deeply fucked up racial issues including actual racists running our government. The original post is pointing out that we should not be surprised since this has been a deliberate policy since the founding of the country all the way through my parents teenage years. After over 400 years of white supremacist policy, we’ve had about 50 years of trying to not have actively, aggressively racist laws and now there are dickbags on major news networks claiming that “whITe mEn aRe tHe ReAl vIcTiMs”.
My man, you have diminished chattle slavery and the American white supremacist attitude that runs deep in the country’s soul with your original statement, comparing it to things it simply cannot be compared to. It’s unhelpful and pointless, because the Americans have the power to bomb and genocide people, so it’s more than valid to just focus on that without saying “what about slavery in Brazil!”. Is the average Brazilian okay with white supremacy? Because the average white American, the Trump base plus the Republican-lite Dems and Libs, are, and they are wrecking the world.
AND YOU STILL HAVEN’T EXPLAINED YOUR ORIGINAL POST.
I hope someone’s paying you to be this obtuse, goddamn.
No. I have pointed out that there is a period of time that the post was about that focused on a particular time for a particular nation, and so ignored the WHOLE of human history that allowed slavery. Including today. Also, if I “diminished…American white supremacist attitude” that’s a good thing, right? They should be diminished.
Also, if I “diminished…American white supremacist attitude” that’s a good thing, right? They should be diminished.
They are trying to say that you are ignoring the serious issues that the US has with white supremacy. Your comment obviously isn’t taking away any power from the fucking Nazis running the US government, and no one is claiming otherwise. In this context “diminishing” means “disregarding, downplaying, ignoring”. They are saying that you are pretending that it is not a real and serious issue.
For example, in the US, our president regularly says wildly racist things. His supporters then diminish the incidents, saying that the President isn’t racist and we’re just overreacting.
The impact, diminished the impact of it. And much of slavery was basically “we had a war and instead of killing you, I’ll allow you to live but you work for me, and maybe at some point you’ll be able to buy your freedom”, it wasn’t all “Western powers kidnap countless innocent people and move them around the world so they can work and die as the inhuman beasts the Western man think they are”. They’re completely different things, and this attitude is at the core of the American soul, because it’s at the core of the Anglo Saxon soul, because it’s at the core of the Western soul (hence the resurgence of Nazi-adjecent movements and politicians in Europe nowadays, it can’t be just shaken off/waited out, they need an entire ideological change) and it’s the reason why Americans are so happy to bomb/okay with bombing innocents around the world.
This thing is not like other things, and maybe you’re just ignorant of it, but you shouldn’t be. It’s basically just the result of Western imperialism on crack and it’s not dead, the labels have just changed.
You are aware of the fact that there are different forms of slavery?
The chattel slavery of the antebellum US is uniquely bad in scale and brutality of oppression. This is clear to anyone who has spent more than five minutes studying the topic.
Living in the US means regularly encountering light skinned black people. The reason that most light skinned black people in the US have light skin is because of rape. Systemic rape. After the import ban of the early 1800’s, the U.S. bred its own slaves.
My understanding segregation in the US was actually about white people keeping their kids away from integrated schools (which is a nuance, it wasn’t black school vs white school - and a lot of it was in the south). Slavery is NOT a colour based system. Don’t get me wrong, it clearly ended up being one based on the the US outcome, but we are talking about Human slavery, it’s been happening our entire civilisation, not just the 250 years or so of US existance.
Good job revealing that you know absolutely nothing about US history.
My understanding segregation in the US was actually about white people keeping their kids away from integrated schools (which is a nuance, it wasn’t black school vs white school - and a lot of it was in the south). Slavery is NOT a colour based system.
Absolutely, categorically, objectively wrong.
I just saw an ad on Facebook recruiting volunteers to go through old housing contracts to find where they still explicitly prohibit Black folks from living in certain neighborhoods. It was based on Black versus White. In the schools which continue to be de facto segregated based on race to this fucking day, it is based on race.
Get your foot out of your mouth and pick up a basic history textbook.
That’s not me. And you either are or for whatever reason you’re American aligned and as brainwashed/evil as them. But I can see you for what you are, lol, because all this time you haven’t even tried to make an ethical argument/explanation for your attitude. Oh well.
All slavery is bad, but not all slavery is equivalent. This is specifically a timeline of chattel slavery and its lingering impacts (i.e. lack of civil and voting rights), in the United States.
Chattel slavery required the construction of our modern ideas about race, in order to justify the keeping of people as chattel based on their skin color.
Slavery in Roman Europe, meanwhile, was more akin to indentured servitude, with the expectation that enslaved people would eventually become citizens.
The point, which should be abundantly obvious, is how recent race based chattel slavery being ended is, and how it was present throughout the history of the US.
The fact is that the US was built on race based chattel slavery. The US is fundamentally structured on racial hierarchy, with Black individuals existing under White ones. This has been legally codified for the bulk of the US’s lifespan, and is a foundational part of the way the US is structured.
This could be similarly said about Brazil, which was also organized around race based chattel slavery, with Europeans importing slaves from Africa there as well.
“Europe” or “Islam” are irrelevant and too broad to be useful terms for historical analysis or at all relevant here.
You get that there is a pattern of shitty historical revisionists that bring up “Muslim slavery” to minimize US slavery? Which you just did?
Is “Islam” a universal world view? If you want to talk about Islam and slavery, at bare fucking minimum you need to talk about a specific area, time period and its strain of Islam. I have no idea what your vague illusion to “Europe” was even supposed to mean in the context of slavery.
I think you just need to recognize that you know next to nothing about this topic, and when one knows nothing, they need to shut the fuck up.
You get that there is a pattern of shitty historical revisionists that bring up “Muslim slavery” to minimize US slavery? Which you just did?
Sorry, you’re going to have to clarify this for me. 1) Which revisionists? 2) Why is “muslim slavery” different to “slavery”? What did I do?
Islam is not a world view, what? It’s a religion that has a long history (that a large part includes slavery).
Europe, as implied by the very first post, was a large part of the North American slave trade. However, the UK effectively ended the African slave trade, the first I believe, long before the US did, which is why I mentioned it.
Lost causers and other racists who want to pretend that the US’s mass enslavement, torture, rape and murder of Africans wasn’t unique.
Why is “muslim slavery” different to “slavery”?
There is not one thing that you can generically refer to as “Muslim slavery.” You can be specific - you can talk about Ottoman slavery, or slavery under the Abassids or something, but saying “Muslim slavery” is a dead give away that you’ve done absolutely zero thinking or research. It’s just a generic “other people had slaves too!” non sequitor.
Why are you trying to make arguments about a topic you clearly have no understanding of? Would you try to teach a calculus class if you had never taken an integral?
It’s not arbitrary, it’s merely the scope of slavery and its effects in the United States. Do you get mad when people don’t talk about the Manchu Dynasty when discussing Victorian English tea consumption?
I think people hyper-focus on topics and don’t understand reasons or consequences.
“OMG, my ancestor was affected by X - I HATE EVERYONE DESCENDED FROM Y AND THEY MUST PAY THE PRICE” it’s a weird “what-about-me-ism” that seems to occur a lot. Modern people are not their ancestors, why should they “pay” for what their forebears did? At what point does it become Ugg should pay to Ogg did with his club 50,000 years ago?
The problem is that it isn’t just ancient history. There is a lot of fucked up shit happening today that is directly related to shit that’s been going on during our lifetimes. And that shit is all directly related to shit that has been happening over the last 100, 200, 300 years.
When I was a child in a large modern “liberal” city in the US, adults would get up in the morning to throw bricks at school buses of children because they didn’t want black children attending their neighborhood schools. This wasn’t in some tiny southern backwater where everyone was some convenient stereotype and this wasn’t 100 years ago. My parents lived through segregation. The last known child of enslaved black Americans died 4 years ago. There are people alive today whose grandparents were slaves.
People here like to pretend that “Lincoln freed the slaves and then it was all better and everyone needs to move on”. The fact of the matter is that the US is not very old, it’s been super fucked up since day one (really, since before day one), we have made a lot of progress but that progress is very recent and no where close to sufficient. No one is saying to punish random white people. But we should absolutely call bullshit when gaslighters try to tell us that there is no systemic racism in the US and knowing our recent history can help inform those conversations.
Now show slavery in Brazil.
Or Europe.
Or Islam.
This arbitrary timeline doesn’t help. All slavery is bad.
It also doesn’t help applying our current views and ideals on the past. I don’t know when the cutoff is, but at some point we have to say “it was a different time and therefor acceptable” not necessarily forgiving them, but at least acknowledging that it was “acceptable.”
What is your point exactly?
I know you are probably not trying to sound like an apologist for fucking slavery, but I’m coming up empty on alternative hypotheses.
“I’d rather whataboutism than admit that the country I live in, the one I’m attached to because I’ve been “loving” it like the rest of the American cult, is simply pure evil. Fuck black people, fuck the Natives that suffered my ancestors, my feelings are hurt!”
This childish outburst doesn’t help.
?
Explain what you meant previously. Try to be honest, it won’t kill you.
OK.
So…
I’m not American, so I’ll just ignore the first sentence. The 2nd sentence is on another lavel, as I haven’t attacked black people, native people, or their ancestors or my feelings.
Are you ok?
Yeah, so the original post is clearly about the US and may require some US specific context to understand. What you’re doing is equivalent to me going into a thread in “Ich el” and complaining that a German language joke about German society (that I don’t actually understand) is flawed for not including Brazil. Or going to a “Black Lives Matter “ protest with an “All Lives Matter “ sign.
Everyone is welcome in the conversation but when multiple people are telling you that you don’t understand what’s going on and are being offensive, take the hint and try listening more and talking less for a bit. We all know that there has been slavery in many different systems in many different countries. This post was not about that. Everyone isn’t knowledgeable enough to make insightful posts about that (myself included).
I happen to know enough about the US to assert: the US currently has some deeply fucked up racial issues including actual racists running our government. The original post is pointing out that we should not be surprised since this has been a deliberate policy since the founding of the country all the way through my parents teenage years. After over 400 years of white supremacist policy, we’ve had about 50 years of trying to not have actively, aggressively racist laws and now there are dickbags on major news networks claiming that “whITe mEn aRe tHe ReAl vIcTiMs”.
Fair point, well made.
My man, you have diminished chattle slavery and the American white supremacist attitude that runs deep in the country’s soul with your original statement, comparing it to things it simply cannot be compared to. It’s unhelpful and pointless, because the Americans have the power to bomb and genocide people, so it’s more than valid to just focus on that without saying “what about slavery in Brazil!”. Is the average Brazilian okay with white supremacy? Because the average white American, the Trump base plus the Republican-lite Dems and Libs, are, and they are wrecking the world.
AND YOU STILL HAVEN’T EXPLAINED YOUR ORIGINAL POST.
I hope someone’s paying you to be this obtuse, goddamn.
No. I have pointed out that there is a period of time that the post was about that focused on a particular time for a particular nation, and so ignored the WHOLE of human history that allowed slavery. Including today. Also, if I “diminished…American white supremacist attitude” that’s a good thing, right? They should be diminished.
They are trying to say that you are ignoring the serious issues that the US has with white supremacy. Your comment obviously isn’t taking away any power from the fucking Nazis running the US government, and no one is claiming otherwise. In this context “diminishing” means “disregarding, downplaying, ignoring”. They are saying that you are pretending that it is not a real and serious issue.
For example, in the US, our president regularly says wildly racist things. His supporters then diminish the incidents, saying that the President isn’t racist and we’re just overreacting.
The impact, diminished the impact of it. And much of slavery was basically “we had a war and instead of killing you, I’ll allow you to live but you work for me, and maybe at some point you’ll be able to buy your freedom”, it wasn’t all “Western powers kidnap countless innocent people and move them around the world so they can work and die as the inhuman beasts the Western man think they are”. They’re completely different things, and this attitude is at the core of the American soul, because it’s at the core of the Anglo Saxon soul, because it’s at the core of the Western soul (hence the resurgence of Nazi-adjecent movements and politicians in Europe nowadays, it can’t be just shaken off/waited out, they need an entire ideological change) and it’s the reason why Americans are so happy to bomb/okay with bombing innocents around the world.
This thing is not like other things, and maybe you’re just ignorant of it, but you shouldn’t be. It’s basically just the result of Western imperialism on crack and it’s not dead, the labels have just changed.
People should stop hyper-focusing on specifics like this, instead, look at the macroscopic view.
You are aware of the fact that there are different forms of slavery?
The chattel slavery of the antebellum US is uniquely bad in scale and brutality of oppression. This is clear to anyone who has spent more than five minutes studying the topic.
Living in the US means regularly encountering light skinned black people. The reason that most light skinned black people in the US have light skin is because of rape. Systemic rape. After the import ban of the early 1800’s, the U.S. bred its own slaves.
Apologies, but I don’t understand what the colour of skin has in relation to this post?
Slavery in the US WAS BASED ON THE COLOR OF PEOPLE’S SKIN. As was SEGREGATION.
Are you not capable of reading or do you just lack any knowledge of the basic history you are trying to argue about?
My understanding segregation in the US was actually about white people keeping their kids away from integrated schools (which is a nuance, it wasn’t black school vs white school - and a lot of it was in the south). Slavery is NOT a colour based system. Don’t get me wrong, it clearly ended up being one based on the the US outcome, but we are talking about Human slavery, it’s been happening our entire civilisation, not just the 250 years or so of US existance.
Good job revealing that you know absolutely nothing about US history.
Absolutely, categorically, objectively wrong.
I just saw an ad on Facebook recruiting volunteers to go through old housing contracts to find where they still explicitly prohibit Black folks from living in certain neighborhoods. It was based on Black versus White. In the schools which continue to be de facto segregated based on race to this fucking day, it is based on race.
Get your foot out of your mouth and pick up a basic history textbook.
Dude, this is not a me problem. It’s 100% a you problem.
I don’t have a problem. I have an opinion.
And a serious issue expressing it clearly.
Which part of my opinion is unclear?
Your “opinion” is evidence of your problem. You’re not alone though, that’s probably the average American reaction to being told their truths.
But you said it was unclear. I also didn’t say I was American.
That’s not me. And you either are or for whatever reason you’re American aligned and as brainwashed/evil as them. But I can see you for what you are, lol, because all this time you haven’t even tried to make an ethical argument/explanation for your attitude. Oh well.
This isn’t a response to what I said being “unclear”. Let’s not deviate from the topic.
Ah yes, my favorite Geographic location…Islam
All slavery is bad, but not all slavery is equivalent. This is specifically a timeline of chattel slavery and its lingering impacts (i.e. lack of civil and voting rights), in the United States.
Chattel slavery required the construction of our modern ideas about race, in order to justify the keeping of people as chattel based on their skin color.
Slavery in Roman Europe, meanwhile, was more akin to indentured servitude, with the expectation that enslaved people would eventually become citizens.
The point, which should be abundantly obvious, is how recent race based chattel slavery being ended is, and how it was present throughout the history of the US.
The fact is that the US was built on race based chattel slavery. The US is fundamentally structured on racial hierarchy, with Black individuals existing under White ones. This has been legally codified for the bulk of the US’s lifespan, and is a foundational part of the way the US is structured.
This could be similarly said about Brazil, which was also organized around race based chattel slavery, with Europeans importing slaves from Africa there as well.
“Europe” or “Islam” are irrelevant and too broad to be useful terms for historical analysis or at all relevant here.
I agree, I shouldn’t have taken a worldview (Brazil, Europe or Islam) when the post was clearly about the US.
You get that there is a pattern of shitty historical revisionists that bring up “Muslim slavery” to minimize US slavery? Which you just did?
Is “Islam” a universal world view? If you want to talk about Islam and slavery, at bare fucking minimum you need to talk about a specific area, time period and its strain of Islam. I have no idea what your vague illusion to “Europe” was even supposed to mean in the context of slavery.
I think you just need to recognize that you know next to nothing about this topic, and when one knows nothing, they need to shut the fuck up.
Sorry, you’re going to have to clarify this for me. 1) Which revisionists? 2) Why is “muslim slavery” different to “slavery”? What did I do?
Islam is not a world view, what? It’s a religion that has a long history (that a large part includes slavery).
Europe, as implied by the very first post, was a large part of the North American slave trade. However, the UK effectively ended the African slave trade, the first I believe, long before the US did, which is why I mentioned it.
Lost causers and other racists who want to pretend that the US’s mass enslavement, torture, rape and murder of Africans wasn’t unique.
There is not one thing that you can generically refer to as “Muslim slavery.” You can be specific - you can talk about Ottoman slavery, or slavery under the Abassids or something, but saying “Muslim slavery” is a dead give away that you’ve done absolutely zero thinking or research. It’s just a generic “other people had slaves too!” non sequitor.
Why are you trying to make arguments about a topic you clearly have no understanding of? Would you try to teach a calculus class if you had never taken an integral?
Maybe he can’t… differentiate between the two.
It’s not arbitrary, it’s merely the scope of slavery and its effects in the United States. Do you get mad when people don’t talk about the Manchu Dynasty when discussing Victorian English tea consumption?
Yes, to a degree.
I think people hyper-focus on topics and don’t understand reasons or consequences.
“OMG, my ancestor was affected by X - I HATE EVERYONE DESCENDED FROM Y AND THEY MUST PAY THE PRICE” it’s a weird “what-about-me-ism” that seems to occur a lot. Modern people are not their ancestors, why should they “pay” for what their forebears did? At what point does it become Ugg should pay to Ogg did with his club 50,000 years ago?
The problem is that it isn’t just ancient history. There is a lot of fucked up shit happening today that is directly related to shit that’s been going on during our lifetimes. And that shit is all directly related to shit that has been happening over the last 100, 200, 300 years.
When I was a child in a large modern “liberal” city in the US, adults would get up in the morning to throw bricks at school buses of children because they didn’t want black children attending their neighborhood schools. This wasn’t in some tiny southern backwater where everyone was some convenient stereotype and this wasn’t 100 years ago. My parents lived through segregation. The last known child of enslaved black Americans died 4 years ago. There are people alive today whose grandparents were slaves.
People here like to pretend that “Lincoln freed the slaves and then it was all better and everyone needs to move on”. The fact of the matter is that the US is not very old, it’s been super fucked up since day one (really, since before day one), we have made a lot of progress but that progress is very recent and no where close to sufficient. No one is saying to punish random white people. But we should absolutely call bullshit when gaslighters try to tell us that there is no systemic racism in the US and knowing our recent history can help inform those conversations.
Dog whistle alert