Even the single most offending business can claim only a small percent of the total damage. Does that absolve them? We both agree the answer is “no.”
I was worried for a minute, but I guess since everyone else is taking this problem seriously, it should be fixed shortly.
None of this was said nor implied. I’ve been talking about how we are all responsible, and you’ve been trying to justify taking no individual steps to make things better.
An individual endlessly forced to attempt an exhausting futile endeavor is a punishment in Greek Mythology.
I disagree that it’s futile, as I’ve already mentioned that the more people do it, the more businesses will cater to that. And if every individual makes the change, it would be massive.
But on Lemmy, its supposed to be a panacea.
Your argument is failing which is why you have to put words into my mouth. I think you’re beginning to realize this. I just hope it turns into actually taking responsibility for what you can control: your own actions.
Even the single most offending business can claim only a small percent of the total damage.
When industries are cartelized, that’s less true. There’s a real knock-on effect between firms, such that a procedure change in a single heavyweight forces others to follow suite or divide off into niches. Classic example of this was Exxon’s adoption of Oracle database suite. Once they got on board, all their clients and partners were dragged along for the ride.
Another great example is the provisions of the Inflation Reduction Act that throw billions into grid overhauls that prioritize green energy. Wind/Solar dipping under coal has set off a massive construction frenzy, particularly in Sunbelt states like Arizona and Texas. You can claim no single coal plant is responsible for climate change. But when a MWh of power from wind gets under coal, it doesn’t matter, because every coal plant sees a reduction in business and every wind farm sees a surge in consumption.
All that to say, these aren’t individual problems. They are systemic. And they can only be solved systemically.
I’ve been talking about how we are all responsible
That’s simply not true. If everyone on my block were to throw themselves off their roofs tomorrow and reduce consumption to a flat zero, climate change would continue apace. If the senior staff at these 60 corporate plants did the same, and there was suddenly a vacuum of leadership/lobbying going into the opposition to climate change reforms, the story would be entirely different.
We are not all responsible. Not in a privatized for-profit corporate hierarchy of an economy.
Despite me very explicitly and clearly saying that companies have the lions share of the responsibility, you claimed my argument, that we all have some responsibility and we should change our individual actions, was claiming it’s a “panacea.” You were the one who made up something that wasn’t there.
I also know that my local shop is moving into a bigger space and has talked about possibly even opening a second shop. I’ve also turned friends into their products and they still shop there. Just just like companies can spread their influence by changing, so can individuals. So your claim that it’s “infinitesimal” starts to fall apart if you actually apply your own logic to yourself.
You need to convince yourself that your actions have no affect, because it’s the only way to say you care while doing nothing. It’s how you cope with that cognitive dissonance: pretend it isn’t there.
You’re really recognizing the fault of your own position here, it’s just the opposite of the Tinkerbell effect, where if you pretend it isn’t there, it’s not.
And you’re trying to argue that i didn’t say this.
I’m pointing to all the instances in which you contradict yourself.
And that’s been the name of this game since forever. The bait and switch of “Everyone needs to pitch in!” and “Its all on your shoulders, we can’t afford to do anything more”.
Nah, just ignorance and endless dishonesty.
Businesses screaming “Stop me before I kill again!” and blaming everyone else for the new pile of bodies.
I’m pointing to all the instances in which you contradict yourself.
None of those contradicts that. Is this going to be the pattern? Just throwing dishonesty upon lies instead of just admitting you were wrong?
The bait and switch of “Everyone needs to pitch in!” and “Its all on your shoulders, we can’t afford to do anything more”.
No one here is baiting and switching anything. This is a desperate strawman.
Businesses screaming “Stop me before I kill again!” and blaming everyone else for the new pile of bodies.
This is funny. Using this context, your argument is “well businesses kill a lot more people than I do, so the few bodies i’m racking up I’m not responsible for.” It’s you blaming businesses for the bodies you’re needlessly piling up.
Im pointing at all of our piles and saying “look, you can actually make an effort to decrease yours while we fight to decrease theirs.” You’re arguing that your pile does not count because it’s small.
m pointing at all of our piles and saying “look, you can actually make an effort to decrease yours
This has no impact on a problem at the scale of industry.
If we were talking about picking up litter at the park, sure. But when we’re discussing the Great Pacific Garbage Patch, there is no solution that isn’t systematic.
You’re arguing that your pile does not count
It functionally does not. I can’t pollute at the scale necessary for anyone to notice, individually.
And zeroing my pollution out does nothing to mitigate the problem.
Even at the scale of city blocks - hundreds of people - there’s no impact.
You’re effectively arguing that there is no point in picking up your litter at the park because there is a pacific garbage patch…and man the garbage can is all the way on the other side! It’s like a full time job to throw away my litter! Me throwing away my litter is so tiny in the grand scheme of things, so it’s not my fault if I just toss it on the ground.
We both agree major changes need to happen. But every time you leave your litter out, you’re contributing to the problem as well and shoulder some responsibility. It’s not like throwing out your litter precludes you from pushing for systemic changes. It’s just something you can do, right now, to minimize your contribution to it.
And buying from places like I suggest is even more useful because it helps them thrive and spread. While I don’t see how throwing away your litter really helps it spread.
Even the single most offending business can claim only a small percent of the total damage. Does that absolve them? We both agree the answer is “no.”
None of this was said nor implied. I’ve been talking about how we are all responsible, and you’ve been trying to justify taking no individual steps to make things better.
I disagree that it’s futile, as I’ve already mentioned that the more people do it, the more businesses will cater to that. And if every individual makes the change, it would be massive.
Your argument is failing which is why you have to put words into my mouth. I think you’re beginning to realize this. I just hope it turns into actually taking responsibility for what you can control: your own actions.
When industries are cartelized, that’s less true. There’s a real knock-on effect between firms, such that a procedure change in a single heavyweight forces others to follow suite or divide off into niches. Classic example of this was Exxon’s adoption of Oracle database suite. Once they got on board, all their clients and partners were dragged along for the ride.
Another great example is the provisions of the Inflation Reduction Act that throw billions into grid overhauls that prioritize green energy. Wind/Solar dipping under coal has set off a massive construction frenzy, particularly in Sunbelt states like Arizona and Texas. You can claim no single coal plant is responsible for climate change. But when a MWh of power from wind gets under coal, it doesn’t matter, because every coal plant sees a reduction in business and every wind farm sees a surge in consumption.
All that to say, these aren’t individual problems. They are systemic. And they can only be solved systemically.
That’s simply not true. If everyone on my block were to throw themselves off their roofs tomorrow and reduce consumption to a flat zero, climate change would continue apace. If the senior staff at these 60 corporate plants did the same, and there was suddenly a vacuum of leadership/lobbying going into the opposition to climate change reforms, the story would be entirely different.
We are not all responsible. Not in a privatized for-profit corporate hierarchy of an economy.
Your fallacy is the Tinkerbell Effect
Despite me very explicitly and clearly saying that companies have the lions share of the responsibility, you claimed my argument, that we all have some responsibility and we should change our individual actions, was claiming it’s a “panacea.” You were the one who made up something that wasn’t there.
I also know that my local shop is moving into a bigger space and has talked about possibly even opening a second shop. I’ve also turned friends into their products and they still shop there. Just just like companies can spread their influence by changing, so can individuals. So your claim that it’s “infinitesimal” starts to fall apart if you actually apply your own logic to yourself.
You need to convince yourself that your actions have no affect, because it’s the only way to say you care while doing nothing. It’s how you cope with that cognitive dissonance: pretend it isn’t there.
You’re really recognizing the fault of your own position here, it’s just the opposite of the Tinkerbell effect, where if you pretend it isn’t there, it’s not.
Uh huh.
Damn this accumulated body of evidence and understanding of causality. If only I had been blessed with sweet ignorance and endless optimism.
And you’re trying to argue that i didn’t say this.
It never ceases to amaze me how many people will turn to outright lying in order to avoid admitting that they might be wrong.
Nah, just ignorance and endless dishonesty.
I’m pointing to all the instances in which you contradict yourself.
And that’s been the name of this game since forever. The bait and switch of “Everyone needs to pitch in!” and “Its all on your shoulders, we can’t afford to do anything more”.
Businesses screaming “Stop me before I kill again!” and blaming everyone else for the new pile of bodies.
None of those contradicts that. Is this going to be the pattern? Just throwing dishonesty upon lies instead of just admitting you were wrong?
No one here is baiting and switching anything. This is a desperate strawman.
This is funny. Using this context, your argument is “well businesses kill a lot more people than I do, so the few bodies i’m racking up I’m not responsible for.” It’s you blaming businesses for the bodies you’re needlessly piling up.
Im pointing at all of our piles and saying “look, you can actually make an effort to decrease yours while we fight to decrease theirs.” You’re arguing that your pile does not count because it’s small.
This has no impact on a problem at the scale of industry.
If we were talking about picking up litter at the park, sure. But when we’re discussing the Great Pacific Garbage Patch, there is no solution that isn’t systematic.
It functionally does not. I can’t pollute at the scale necessary for anyone to notice, individually.
And zeroing my pollution out does nothing to mitigate the problem.
Even at the scale of city blocks - hundreds of people - there’s no impact.
The only solution is systematic.
You’re making my argument for me.
You’re effectively arguing that there is no point in picking up your litter at the park because there is a pacific garbage patch…and man the garbage can is all the way on the other side! It’s like a full time job to throw away my litter! Me throwing away my litter is so tiny in the grand scheme of things, so it’s not my fault if I just toss it on the ground.
We both agree major changes need to happen. But every time you leave your litter out, you’re contributing to the problem as well and shoulder some responsibility. It’s not like throwing out your litter precludes you from pushing for systemic changes. It’s just something you can do, right now, to minimize your contribution to it.
And buying from places like I suggest is even more useful because it helps them thrive and spread. While I don’t see how throwing away your litter really helps it spread.