• jetA
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    7 months ago

    All right let’s go through a thought experiment: You’re a 16-year-old girl, you just had a baby. The father is dead. You want to leave the fighting zone. You’re not allowed to leave. How do you affect collective action, and change the government? The government which last had an election before you were born

    The fact that you and your baby cannot overthrow Hamas, is that enough reason for you to die?

      • jetA
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        7 months ago

        I think that’s a catch-22. If you organize a protest and you get into a group. You’re very likely to be bombed.

        We are saying a member of this collective, is responsible for the behavior of other members of that collective. And until they fix the collective behavior, they cannot leave the kill box. That’s unethical, that’s immoral, that’s collective punishment

        • Neuromancer@lemm.eeOPM
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          7 months ago

          It’s not. Fighting a war to defend yourself isn’t collective punishment.

          You seem to be advocating that Israel should just let Hamas launch rockets and kill their civilians. I think that’s a horrible take on things.

          • jetA
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            7 months ago

            I’m advocating that Israel should allow refugees to leave the combat area. I’m saying no children should die in strategic bombing. There isn’t a Hamas armored core resisting the Israeli Air Force. There was total military domination of both the skies and the land. This is asymmetric occupation.

            • jetA
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              7 months ago

              Just so we’re clear, if your goal is to end Hamas. But you don’t want to actually do the police work on the ground. The best scenario is to create a land bridge between the West Bank and Palestine and allow the Palestinian authority to send troops, facilitators, bureaucrats, into Gaza.

            • Neuromancer@lemm.eeOPM
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              7 months ago

              They can leave. They just can’t go into Israel and Egypt doesn’t want them.

              Who has said they would take the refugees? Nobody.

              When you spend years attacking your neighbors and supporting terrorism, you find yourself with limited options.

              • jetA
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                7 months ago

                And in our scenario the 16-year-old girl with the baby and Dead family, she has spent years attacking her neighbors? And she must suffer for it? This is the disconnect we’re not agreeing on.

                They cannot leave. It’s literally a closed prison.

                • Neuromancer@lemm.eeOPM
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                  7 months ago

                  She isn’t suffering for it. She can’t leave because nobody wants her.

                  Israel isn’t bombing a house to punish anyone. They are bombing a house to kill combatants trying to kill them.

                  That is why it isn’t collective punishment. They are fighting a war and not punishing people.

                  • jetA
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                    7 months ago

                    Buy your own admission they’re denying food and water and medicine into Gaza. That is also definitional collective punishment.

                    The whole daddy’s home system and the up to 20 collateral budget for strikes inside of Gaza also speaks to collective punishment

                    You seem to be operating from the theory that as long as there’s any military justification, or rationale, it’s not collective punishment. Collective punishment is highly effective from a military perspective. There is no denying that. The reason we say collective punishment is terrible, is because your externalizing the pain onto people uninvolved.