The ice cream no longer exists. It hasn’t existed for a long time, and no amount of wishing will bring it back.
I want ice cream, too. But before we can have ice cream again, we need to not die.
That’s QUITTER talk! I’m voting for Rocky Road.
So the cliff?
Brick on the pedal.
I LOVE Rocky Road
You’re right - it’s more like one group voting to drive off a cliff and the other voting to just drive really close to the cliff in case we decide to go off on some other vote, but so long as the cliff doesn’t win now, we can focus on convincing people ice cream is the better option. We don’t, and instead wait 4 more years to complain about the lack of ice cream, but that’s a separate problem.
Still better than not voting to not go off the cliff.
The problem is people have voted for ice cream. They have read about people voting for ice cream for years before they were even born.
Lots of people want ice cream but we are at a point where people KNOW the cliff exists. They DO NOT know the ice cream shop exists because all the times they were PROMISED ice cream the bus just stopped at a sewage treatment plant.
The voters are not the problem. They have zero reason to trust the bus driver. Because the bus driver refuses to throw the cliff voters off the bus. Bad optics.
The voters are not the problem. They have zero reason to trust the bus driver. Because the bus driver refuses to throw the cliff voters off the bus.
The voters chose the bus driver.
No they don’t.
Voters are told to pick which driver they want and both drivers don’t listen to directions and can’t read a map.
So some voters don’t care who’s driving the bus or where it’s going.
Because they have no reason to care.
They tolerate the shitty ride and shitty passengers while looking out the window. Waiting for the ride to end. But it never does.
Yes, they do. The voters get a chance to decide who those two drivers are, and 85% of them stay home. Then they got to choose between the driver that wants to drive off the cliff, and the driver who swears they’ll go get ice cream. And then 40% of the voters stay home.
Now the driver’s taking us off the cliff, and you’re whining that the driver that got the most votes is doing exactly what they said they would.
They have every reason to care, but they don’t anyway. You can’t abdicate your power and then complain no one listens to you. We had a chance to have better choices, but no one but retirees reliably show up to primaries.
Jeez more of this b b both sides same stuff.
If you think literally saying “they’re definitely different, but the difference is smaller than ideal” means “they’re the same” then things will never be fixed.
Dude you changed this it from “we want ice cream” to “we want to drive next to the cliff so we can drive off it later”. That’s not smaller than ideal, you literally changed it both sides the same, just later.
No, I changed it to “one side killing us, the other not, but still leaving it on the table” Which is a huge difference, but still a troubling scenario. Not driving off a cliff is orders of magnitude better than driving off a cliff, but still significantly worse than ice cream.
Dude one side wanted to get ice cream and you changed it to “nah, not that. I’m gonna change it to what the other side wants, just later. Change it to the complete opposite”. You completely changed it. Changed everything. Smh. That you either don’t want to see that or can’t see that… I’m out.
Again, I didn’t change it to “later” I changed it to “if the cliff drivers win the next vote, it’ll be a short drive.” Do you really think that’s inaccurate? Look at how Trump drove the country into the ground in his first 4 years, and how easy it was to just keep doing it even after we had 4 years of democratic leadership that was meant to get things back on track. I don’t call that “ice cream,” I call that “sitting by the cliff waiting for the cliff drivers to be in power again.” We need leadership that will drive away from the cliff even if it upsets the people and politicians that want to drive off it.
Really? Because Scandinavia has really nice ice cream. Europe too, with some problems.
Some of the people refuse to believe that the accelerator and steering wheel do anything, even though the pro-cliff people are clearly steering and accelerating.
Some people think we’ve already gone over the cliff, and thus trying to drive the bus is meaningless.
They’re wrong, but they believe it, and people’s beliefs are sometimes too precious to let go.
And some people aren’t on the bus, just on video chat, but for some reason are still arguing to drive off the cliff.
Honestly, seriously. Would harm reduction have happened if Kamala was elected. Yes. Did I personally core for her? Yes.
Did this get them elected? No? Shut the fuck up and stop blaming voters because the Democrats don’t know how to do politics on purpose so they don’t lose their bribes.
Want a better analogy? There’s a bus driving for a cliff and one group votes to minimize the impact of driving off the cliff while another group says please please drive faster off the cliff and do a backflip. A third group says guys, can we perhaps maybe not drive off the cliffd? And the rest call them insane and drive off the cliff
You just have to love those analogies where the author always ends up being the hero of the story.
I blame both. The Democratic Party and everybody who did not vote for them. My heart is big, there is enough room to hate everyone!
That’s the spirit!
Do you think Republican politics have the slightest responsibilities or none at all? I think all this thread, and the analogy itself plays into polarization, which is not a good way to actually put the much needed bridges… Everyone can do a lot. There are plenty of tasks and battles. Voting is one, very relevant every X many years. Focus on the everyday too. And on every neighbor. All needs should be covered. Do your best. Allow yourself to rest. We can do this.
Bad ice ream is still better than driving off a cliff. You can tell me all day how bad the ice cream is and how shitty the place is because they don’t even try to make good ice cream, they don’t even try to get customers or do a good job. It’s still better than driving off a cliff. I wouldn’t blame the ice cream store for making shitty when people choose not to vote for it. They knew the alternative and still decided to leave it up to fate.
Sure, a nice ice cream shop is easier to get people to vote on, but when the alternative is going off a cliff, the ice cream is kind of a moot point. But sure, let’s blame the ice cream shop for not being attractive enough when anything but going off the cliff should be the obvious choice. Yes, the ice cream shop could have made it easier, but any sane person can see she obvious choice.
Let’s put it this way. If one side is saying they will kill everyone who isn’t straight and white, and the other side says they want to ban gay marriage. Now I think queer rights is really important but I would vote for the second to prevent the firsr. But people seem to be screaming “I’m never voting against gay rights!” Cool, so when the other guy wins and it’s way worse, at least you feel good.
I keep voting for ice cream and I get told “we can’t get ice cream because we have to vote to not go off a cliff again”
Yeah, I think not going off a cliff is pretty important though.
Right, but eventually the cliff guys win and we go off the cliff anyway, and even if they never win we don’t ever get ice cream.
The solution seems we kick them out of the car.
But that’s not how voting for a direction works. I think this analogy is just starting to fall apart after this much discussion, we’ve taken it too far haha.
Listen, I’m all for taking out the trash and not just taking small wins to survive, but I just don’t see the path. I might be missing it, there’s plenty I don’t know, but survival at least would have let us survive a little longer.
I don’t see the path out of just surviving either.
Except maybe jumping out of the car.
Tuck and roll, brother
You get ice cream, just not as much as you want because some people refuse to vote.
Honestly, seriously. Would harm reduction have happened if Kamala was elected. Yes. Did I personally core for her? Yes.
Did this get them elected? No?
What’s the relevance of this inane statement, again?
The Democrats aren’t the ice cream party. They are the “drive off the cliff slowly party” and spent most of their efforts on attacking people who didn’t want to drive off the cliff at all. Driving off the cliff is what both the Republicans and Democrats stand for and it is only “harm reduction” in the framework that people have to accept that the oligarchy will harm them and gives them the illusion of choice how they want to be harmed, rather than a democratic choice between being harmed and not being harmed.
The Democrats aren’t the ice cream party. They are the “drive off the cliff slowly party” and spent most of their efforts on attacking people who didn’t want to drive off the cliff at all. Driving off the cliff is what both the Republicans and Democrats stand for and it is only “harm reduction” in the framework that people have to accept that the oligarchy will harm them and gives them the illusion of choice how they want to be harmed, rather than a democratic choice between being harmed and not being harmed.
The point of the term ‘harm reduction’ is that it is acknowledging that participation in bourgeois democracy is buying time rather than fundamentally reforming the system, I can’t believe how many fucking times and in how many fucking ways I have to explain this to a community that is purportedly leftist.
So what do you do with that time? Hillary was buying time, Biden was buying time, Biden/Harris was buying time…
Instead what happened in these times was things to get worse, the “buying time” party bragging about its exploits in mass deportations, wall building and bombing abroad and ferociously fighting anyone that wanted to bring improvements. Even now we see the exact same thing with Mamdani. The DNC has “learned” absolutely nothing, because everything is going according to plan. Mamdani is threatening the plan. Tump is not.
When people decided to prevent ICE gestapo abducting people in their communities in California, Democratic mayors had the police crack down on them.
Your strategy is all messed up and it didn’t lead you anywhere. With another four years of far right DNC politics as “harm reduction” you would have only fostered liberal complacency and ignorance and on top of it created the economic conditions for the next iteration of Fascism to hit back even harder. There is no fighting with the US political establishment. There is only fighting against it, if you ever want to see the US become a reasonably okay country.
This guy gets it, if the opposition party cares more about maintaining their legal bribes than punishing those doing the bribing and accepting the bribes then they bear an equal responsibility to the destination that those in the car are driven to.
Well said. I tried to make this point elsewhere in the thread and got showered with downvoted, so it’s nice to see there’s still some sanity left in the world.
It sounds like the problem is you don’t have enough allies in the fight against either, and your strategy is to bank on getting more allies in a fight against fascists than you would against democrats.
Good luck with that, sincerely; but I think it sounds like a bit of a gamble. Fascists are quite good at terrorising moderates into compliance and killing or imprisoning their opponents.
Fucking fantastic that Thalmann is making a comeback.
The amazing thing is that there is no Thalmann. Our Hindenburg is so disliked that nobody has to split the vote for him to lose.
I laugh but I cry. But yes.
My point was more about the attitude of “Let fascism come, it will lead to Better Things™” though.
This is why I voted for Kamala, as it would’ve reduced harm for a little while…Long enough to figure out an effective counter. Right now, I am using my voice as best as possible to reduce further harm (with the Big Bad Bill coming into effect soon) I dread losing my insurance and wasting away because untreated it’s a guarantee. Given that I live in a mostly Red State, I could be one of the 17 million affected, or spared because I work part-time… If there are elections in the future, I will be voting with harm reduction in mind every time. Unless America becomes a doomed Fascist Nation which devours itself from within.
Stay strong, talk to your neighbours if feasible where you live, work together locally. Every major catastrophe in my area of the world, even ones which totally upended my country (Romania) for a generation, my family survived via community and friend groups.
In a collapsed or collapsing state, mutual aid is mandatory for survival.
survived via community and friend groups.
People often downplay associativity and are often encouraged to because power to the people scares the oligarchs. You’re easier to subdue if you’re alone.
Join your local community in any ways you can.As I am socially anxious; it’s rough to interact with others. However, I will stay strong and try to participate when possible. As, communities do survive if they actually work with one another despite their differences. We can survive Trump’s cursed presidency through working together. The rich fear that shit, this is why the policies Republicans are pushing are so disruptive for the working class. To reduce the odds of them being able to work communally to fight against oligarchs and their mouthpiece Republicans/MAGA sympathizers.
Best of luck. Whatever else happens, I hope you manage to make it through to the other side.
You just had 4 years of Biden “reducing harm”. How did that work out?
You just had 4 years of Biden “reducing harm”. How did that work out?
Has ‘harm reduction’ not been explained to you in simple enough terms yet, or are you just pretending to be incapable of digesting simple concepts?
This is just a troll, clearly wants to argue unnecessarily.
This one’s much simpler than that; one party will throw people I love into a concentration camp in the next four years, one party will not. I will vote for those who will not. The rest is just bullshit.
You sound like one of those dangerous shitlibs, not wanting people to be thrown into concentration camps. Don’t you know that the lives of the likes of you and me are acceptable sacrifices so that the wannabe revolutionaries can (checks notes) do nothing but feel really smug about how superior they are to The Establishment?
There’s a part of me that thinks these people fell for very well crafted propaganda that kept them away from the voting booth and, like Magats, they keep doubling down instead of admitting they got duped and moving on.
In a binary system where my choices are Nazis or not Nazis, anyone who comes along and tells me not voting is the best option is my fucking enemy.
I had people unironically tell me that Kamala Harris was no better than Hitler, and that she & Trump were the same but just did the exact same harm in “different areas,” which is why it looked like they were any different policy-wise. 💀
Yeah the genocide angle is just “both sides” with sprinkles. It’s a really effective misdirection.
They did. They were dumb enough to fall for it and now we have concentration camps.
Since both support Genocide I don’t think it’s fair to say it’s nazis vs non-nazis. It’s more like genocide over there vs genocide maybe here and there. That’s assuming that the Republicans will actually go full authoritarian dictatorship which isn’t necessarily going to happen. A lot of people are speculating that things will happen that didn’t last time Trump was in charge. It definitely could happen, but I don’t think it’s as likely as people are making out. Trump would have to convince all of the keys to power to abandon democracy, and that hasn’t happened yet. He is already getting push back for certain things, not to mention braking up with Elon.
Anyway I sure am glad I don’t live in the USA. Although honestly my own country is having its own issues. The supposedly left wing party seem to have decided they have the same level of support for trans people that the right wing one does, or at least their leader is willing to follow the conservatives on that issue. I almost regret voting for him now.
That’s assuming that the Republicans will actually go full authoritarian dictatorship which isn’t necessarily going to happen.
It has happened, is continuing to happen, and will get worse. ICE now has a large budget than most militaries and Trump is exploring ways to “deport” American citizens (probably to concentration camps). They’re exploring ways to essentially make migrant farm workers slaves. The supreme Court just made it harder for judges to pause executive orders. The US (of which I’m a citizen) is fucked.
That’s assuming that the Republicans will actually go full authoritarian dictatorship which isn’t necessarily going to happen.
Wtf? They already have. They’ve ballooned ICE’s budget to more than that of the marines. They want to deport 65 million latinos. That’s all the Latinos. They’ve already gone full authoritarian dictatorship while you were watching
I also have extensive thoughts about a political system and electorate of which I know very little about.
Pretty accurate portrayal.
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The delusion that democrats don’t also put many people in cages is a huge part of how we got here.
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By not voting you promoted to accelerate genocide. You’ve made it worse with your stupidity.
Time to stop thinking this will end in 4 years with an election. American democracy died on January 20th.
Meanwhile both parties massacre people in other countries by the tens of thousands, sometimes by the millions.
If caring about that is bullshit to you, i find it rich that you expect anyone to care about the life of you or the people you care about.
We need a “neither” option. If that one wins neither candiate gets to be president and the parties have to pick someone else. Not voting counts as neither.
If only.
Every time I see people complaining about 3rd party voters all I can picture is the “Am I so out of touch?” meme. Like, y’all already shot yourselves in the face 3 times in a row and it surprisingly didn’t fail 1/3 times, but you’ll blame literally anyone but yourselves. Run a candidate people want, run policies people want, and support that candidate and those policies instead of throwing everything you can against them because you like money, and we would not be anywhere near where we are now. People vote for trump because they don’t want another fucking “nothing will fundamentally change” politician. The country is already shit. It needs to change. But dems are happy with it how it is. They don’t care about immigrants, or poor people, or social security, or women’s rights, or whatever. They just hold onto those as carrots on a stick. They just want to keep making millions, and would rather trump win so they don’t have to actually embrace populist policy. That’s why people don’t vote. The choice isn’t ice cream or drive off a cliff. Its do we drive into a wall and die now, or drive off a cliff so it takes slightly longer to die, the drive off a cliff people shot the 2 people who asked if they could vote for ice cream and that’s why the others didn’t vote.
Run a candidate people want, run policies people want, and support that candidate and those policies instead of throwing everything you can against them because you like money
Their absolutely pathetic response to Mamdani’s victory in the primary was so flagrant, I’m not even sure how to react to the Democratic party going forward. Not only did they try to stack the deck in Cuomo’s favor, but then they threw a fucking tantrum when Cuomo still lost despite their efforts. They just don’t seem credible to me anymore.
I’m starting to wonder if there isn’t a concerted op going on to whip people into believing in an unending two party system forever.
Run a candidate people want, run policies people want, and support that candidate and those policies instead of throwing everything you can against them because you like money
Golly gee, if only there were some way that parties decided what candidates they were going to run, and what policies that candidate supported.
Unfortunately, as we all know, such decisions are made by The Secret Cabal and us lowly voters have no part in it.
Signed, someone who had a fever dream in 2016 and 2020 and remembered voting in something called a ‘primary’ for some ‘Bernie Sanders’ guy.
Sure dude, keep pretending the DNC doesn’t run anything and that they have zero influence or agenda and it’s all the perfect will of the people. You’re right, the people with billions of dollars in charge of the party are really just chill dudes who listen to what people really want.
Sorry for not thinking that every public poll was rigged by The Shadow Elite and that Bernie actually won the primaries by millions of votes which were shredded without a single hint of evidence left behind by the Puppetmasters of the DNC.
Maybe people are voting for what they want, and the issue is a lack of education…?
No, no, it must be the Shadow Cabal sabotaging all the polls. I’m SURE of it!
My brother in christ, could you strawman any harder?
NOBODY thinks bernie ‘actually won’. Pretty much everyone who saw the 2016 election knows that Hillary won the primary, due to smear campaigns against bernie backed by establishment democrats. You know, the EXACT same thing that’s going on with Zohran Mamdani RIGHT FUCKING NOW. He WON the primary, and not by some secret cabal type shit but by the will of the voters by running gasp populist policies that actually help out the working class. And the establishment DNC is doing everything they can to smear him even AFTER getting the will of the voters, in favor of Andrew Cuomo or Eric Adams.
“If liberals are so fucking smart then why do they lose so god damn always?”
Instead of blaming the leftists who may or may not have voted (which for what it’s worth, I have never met a leftist irl who abstained voting even in a ruby red state) why don’t you fucking blame the people who are actively driving the bus off the cliff?
Or how about you LEARN from the last decade?
Because this right here is why establishment dems AND republicans ain’t doing too hot. You look at Trump’s victories and never ask ‘why did all these people vote for this fucking asshole?’. Instead, you write everyone who voted Trump as a racist or a sexist or a NAZI and while they’re perfectly willing to associate with NAZIs, it’s important to fucking learn why the fuck they voted for that asshole. And yeah, some of them definitely voted for racism or sexism reasons, but you’re absolutely braindead if you think the fact that he ran on eliminating corruption (‘drain the swamp’) and ran on making things better for the working class (‘price of eggs’). Was he lying? Yup. Is he a corrupt fascist? 100%, but unlike literally everyone else in the 3 presidential campaigns he ran in (excluding bernie ofc) absolutely NOBODY was speaking to the working class or populist policies. It was ‘I’m with her’ or ‘Trump bad’ or ‘It’s my turn’.
So, feel free sitting on your high horse saying ‘oh, well if the voters weren’t so dumb we would be at brunch’ instead of focusing on the people whose entire job it was to inspire people to vote for them, and keep dividing the working class more and more. You’re only playing into their hands, and yes I am talking about the billionaires that you’re sucking off rn.
NOBODY thinks bernie ‘actually won’
HA! Hahahaha! My dude, just sit here. They will be by. They usually ramp up around elections and the cause of Bernie not being in charge of all things is always DWS and the DNC. He actually won but they stole it by not letting people see how awesome he was. Yes, literally. Yes, a lot of them. Yes, every goddamned time.
unlike literally everyone else in the 3 presidential campaigns he ran in (excluding bernie ofc) absolutely NOBODY was speaking to the working class or populist policies.
Bullshit. 100% pure, uncut, arrogant “leftist” bullshit. No, I will not google it for you. PoliSci 101 is over, fascism is in place and it’s time to learn how difficult it is to get three progressives to agree on anything in actual, real-life, not-the-internet practice.
This fucked up “take” is the exact same since NADER and what have you got? A party? A name? A fucking t-shirt slogan ffs? No. Nothing.
Beyond worthless. Actively cancerous to actual progress. It’s painful because everyone goes through it and no one listens to the people with experience and the fascists vote in lock-step and we lose again.
Politics is stuck in a time loop.
Both can be true. The major US parties are both rotten to the core and as such the leadership of the democrats has much of the responsibility for this, but people not voting are still fascism enablers, albeit to a lesser degree than those voting for trump for non-fascism reasons.
Voting third party is one thing, it’s the only way outside of revolution you’re going to escape from the established two parties. Not voting only signals apathy and the only explicit statement is “I’m ok with whoever wins, including the raping racist hitler v2”.
Do me a favor pal: show me proof that it was leftists who didn’t vote this time. In fact, show me proof that the people who didn’t vote were against harm reduction. Show me any proof any evidence from ANYWHERE that the people who refused to vote… were refusing to vote? Show me any evidence that says that says anything with any certainty about ANYONE who did not vote?
Oh, you can’t? Well that makes sense, because we don’t actually KNOW who left the electorial arean. We don’t know WHY they left the electorial arena, and we don’t know WHAT they were thinking. So, I’d love to know why everyone seems so certain that it was the left who stopped voting entirely as opposed to the non-MAGA right or even the liberal center. And the reseaon everyone is CERTAIN it’s the left if because that’s been the reused talking point that’s been dragged out every time there’s been a lull in the insanity since Jan 20th. Almost like somebody doesn’t want the subject to die. Almost like someone profits off of the left and the center fighting each other instead of fighting the 1%.
People who stopped voting entirely may be facism enablers, I’m not disagreeing. But, there’s no actual, solid evidence to blame that shit on any one group in particular. And even despite that, it’s absolutely INSANE that we’re hyper focused on the imagined people we THINK didn’t vote for the reasons we think they didn’t vote, and yet IGNORE the people we KNOW voted for this and IGNORE the reasons they’re telling us they voted for this.
Like tf? Thinking billionaires have been and are continuing to demonize any actual progressive candidate and are propagandizing broad swaths of the electoral is an inane conspircay theory when it’s something we have seen evidence of time and time and time again, and in the same breath saying that people who voted for trump are lying about why they voted for trump based on ‘just trust me bro’ is absolutely ludicrous.
I never said it was the left lol, everything I said applies regardless of political leanings. Though in all likelihood there were at least some leftists that didn’t.
Also the commenters that were saying as much on this extremely left leaning platform are probably the ones mainly adressed by OP.
Do me a favor pal: show me proof that it was leftists who didn’t vote this time. In fact, show me proof that the people who didn’t vote were against harm reduction. Show me any proof any evidence from ANYWHERE that the people who refused to vote… were refusing to vote? Show me any evidence that says that says anything with any certainty about ANYONE who did not vote?
Oh, you can’t? Well that makes sense, because we don’t actually KNOW who left the electorial arean. We don’t know WHY they left the electorial arena, and we don’t know WHAT they were thinking.
If there’s one thing that Lemmy has taught me, it’s that people on the left aren’t any smarter than those on the right. Just less vile.
…people not voting is a failure of coalition-building, full-stop…
…meanwhile, a successful coalition is now calling the shots instead; that’s american democracy in action, like it or not…
NOBODY thinks bernie ‘actually won’.
I have seen numerous people on here say that Bernie actually won.
Pretty much everyone who saw the 2016 election knows that Hillary won the primary, due to smear campaigns against bernie backed by establishment democrats.
Oh goodness, I’m glad nothing like that would happen in the general election! If only the Dems had played fair, the GOP certainly would have!
Also, would you like to remind me what a smear campaign does? Does it alter the brainwaves of the hapless Moderate Voter™ to obeying their DNC masters or something?
… or does it appeal to their pre-existing ideas and prejudices to sway them towards a candidate?
No, that sounds too much like voters having agency, and not being mere conduits for the Will Of The Proletariat™. It must be the brainwave altering thing.
And the establishment DNC is doing everything they can to smear him even AFTER getting the will of the voters, in favor of Andrew Cuomo or Eric Adams.
… okay?
He WON the primary, and not by some secret cabal type shit but by the will of the voters by running gasp populist policies that actually help out the working class. And
Yeah, he won in the primary for NYC. Which is good. Great, in fact! But New York City is not all of America, and it’s really quite worrying that so many people here think it is.
“If liberals are so fucking smart then why do they lose so god damn always?”
What does that say, then, if socialists are constantly losing to liberals in this environment?
If we’re using success as a measure of intelligence or correctness, that would lead to some… very concerning conclusions that I would not buy into. But I’m also not the one connecting intelligence and electoral success.
Instead of blaming the leftists who may or may not have voted (which for what it’s worth, I have never met a leftist irl who abstained voting even in a ruby red state) why don’t you fucking blame the people who are actively driving the bus off the cliff?
Bruh, in the past few days alone, on this very comm, there have been numerous, highly upvoted memes and comments in which liberals are blamed for the current state of fascism in this country. I don’t think “Antifascist unity, but only for anti-electoralists ^.^” is all that compelling.
And for the record, I do fucking blame the people who are actively driving the bus off the cliff. And I have done so vocally and repeatedly. But for some reason, many online leftists prefer a circlejerk to examining whether advocating against electoral participation may have helped the literal fucking fascist get elected by a single goddamn percentage point.
Because this right here is why establishment dems AND republicans ain’t doing too hot. You look at Trump’s victories and never ask ‘why did all these people vote for this fucking asshole?’. Instead, you write everyone who voted Trump as a racist or a sexist or a NAZI and while they’re perfectly willing to associate with NAZIs, it’s important to fucking learn why the fuck they voted for that asshole. And yeah, some of them definitely voted for racism or sexism reasons, but you’re absolutely braindead if you think the fact that he ran on eliminating corruption (‘drain the swamp’) and ran on making things better for the working class (‘price of eggs’).
Jesus fucking Christ.
The fact that you fell for that shit - that people are just deeply ‘economically anxious’ or ‘anti-corruption’ goes to show how little you’ve spoken with conservative and swing voters in your lifetime.
Was he lying? Yup. Is he a corrupt fascist? 100%, but unlike literally everyone else in the 3 presidential campaigns he ran in (excluding bernie ofc) absolutely NOBODY was speaking to the working class or populist policies. It was ‘I’m with her’ or ‘Trump bad’ or ‘It’s my turn’.
Yeah, no one was running on a campaign of increasing the minimum wage, a national ban on price gouging, lowering the cost of living, increasing corporate taxes while reducing taxes on small businesses, legalizing marijuana, forgiving student loan debt, increasing child tax credits, and expanding public healthcare systems.
Imagine if someone did that? It’d be wild. They’d probably get incredible support, especially from leftists, and win in a landslide.
I mean, imagine if one of the major party candidates ran with that platform, and was still smeared as a neoliberal shill by self-proclaimed leftists who treated a Trump victory as a defeat for the dreaded shitlib menace? That would be absolutely ghoulish if people who claimed to be leftists were that dedicated to a Trump victory so they could continue to feel good and pure about being against The Man and The System. They’d have literal blood on their hands.
Good thing nothing of the sort happened, and certainly useful low-information idiots didn’t pass that around, engaging in a level of coprophagic propaganda that would embarrass anyone with a hint of basic decency.
You’re only playing into their hands, and yes I am talking about the billionaires that you’re sucking off rn.
“When you don’t think everyone is secretly a socialist at heart, you’re sucking off the billionaires!”
I’m so sorry for not spending all of my time circlejerking with other leftists. I have the deep and abiding misfortune of actually living in the USA.
Lmao. You might live in the USA but your posting history tells me exactly what I need to know about how much you actually talk to IRL people. Dude you moderate like 20 communities and spend your days posting on HERE. You don’t actually speak to irl people. And yes, as someone living in a ruby red state, volunteering with mutual aid groups and political action groups in a ruby red state, yes I HAVE actually spoken to conservatives lately, along with liberals, leftists, and people who have showered since this election. Get off the computer every minute of every day, actually go out and touch grass and DO something material in your life, because you look like a rage-bait bot with control issues who hasn’t spoken to another living human person before. Assuming, ofcourse, that you’re not just a shill account meant to spread propaganda.
Dude you moderate like 20 communities and spend your days posting on HERE.
Yeah, I take like an hour out of my day before work to make one whole post in each of the ~10 communities I mod. Clearly I’m out of control.
The urge to reply back to people who haven’t the first goddamn clue what they’re talking about is more damning and time-consuming, but I make room for it, out of miserable compulsion to not let idiocy go unchallenged in the comment sections I frequent, if nothing else.
yes I HAVE actually spoken to conservatives lately,
And you still believe that they’re just anti-corruption and economically anxious, like some Very Serious Liberal Writer ready to write his sixth consecutive election column about having pancakes with them good holsum country folk?
That’s disturbingly naive that you’d still fall for that. But considering what you’ve said in this comment thread, unsurprising.
Pug. Long time fan here but I’m curious if you’ve read “Shattered” yet? It is a well researched book about the inner machinations of the Hillary campaign and goes into depth as to what / how things went horribly wrong. I used to think like you, but the reality is it’s a bit of column A and a bit of column B.
Tl;dr: even if Bernie had polled well among mainstream voters, it would have taken mountains to move the whale that is Hillary. She had ties to every corner of the DNC. It’s not totally that she had to rig the primary, but it was a fools errand to run against someone as powerful and well connected as her.
I mean, my argument isn’t that Hillary didn’t have deep ties to the DNC, or that the DNC didn’t want a coronation in 2016, but that the bias of the DNC and the influence of Hillary’s campaign on the primary beyond that of a normal candidate was not significant enough to create the massive amount we lost by. If we’d lost by 1-2%, or even as high as 4-5%, maybe there’d be a stronger argument, but at 12%, without evidence of serious malfeasance beyond favoritism, it’s pretty clear that… Bernie was just not the more popular candidate. While frustrating, the core problem was not Hillary being well-connected - it’s the US still being an immensely right-wing country.
That Bernie polled even lower in 2020 against Biden, losing many of the areas he carried in 2016, also shows that a non-neglible proportion of the votes Bernie did get were from anti-Hillary votes, rather than pro-socialist sentiment.
Fair point. I do agree that the mainstream electorate skews skews further right than terminally ill online leftists. I just think running a robot over a populist against another populist was a severe miscalculation by the DNC, regardless of how well he polled. Hillary had the charisma of a wooden board and a lot of baggage. Polls are useful to getting a pulse of the people at a moment in time. Many polls showed Bernie outperforming Hillary against Trump. The context matters. But I hear you.
Yeah, the DNC is just a long string of unforced errors. I just don’t want people to think that there’s an easy solution that’s been denied them, because… there isn’t.
I can count on one finger the times that the person I voted for in a primary went on to win the general election.
And then he got brain damage and became a Republican.
Voting in the primaries doesn’t appear to do anything.
Remember, no matter how beautiful, morally righteous, or gratifying your strategy is, you should really look at the results
This is kind of a good analogy for ranked choice voting, to be honest.
Also
I only voted to drive off of a cliff as a joke. I wanted to trigger those sweet tooth ice cream eaters. I didn’t want to die.
Someone told me about people, who regretted eating ice cream. What if you are allergic to milk, amd die from eating ice cream? What if ice cream is a recent creation by <Jewish enough sounding name> to make children and adults addicted to ice cream, to the rest of their lives? Driving off from a cliff is therefore preferable to ice cream, and someone told me only ice cream eaters will die in a fire.
More like two options: one runs the bus off the cliff while the other sets it on fire. Sure, we’ll live longer in the fire scenario. Maybe we can even put it out!
But I’m still looking for the fucking exit.
You’re on a bus with 9 people. 1 guy takes up 2/3rds of the bus by himself. 3 people take up 90% of what remains, and the last 5 are stacked on top of each other on the last remaining seat.
The one guy with 2/3 of the bus says he wants to throw two of the other passengers off a cliff at random so he can have their seats. 2 of the 3 in the next segment think this is a terrible idea and say we should keep things as they are, with one voting for it because he thinks somehow everyone will benefit from the top guy having more space. The bottom segment votes 3-2 in favor of the idea, because they hate the people in the second group for taking up space they could use, and like the idea of possibly throwing them off a cliff.
The other four didn’t vote because there wasn’t a party against genocide.
Single issue voter is still committed to being uncommitted.
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An issue easily adressed but stubbornly dismissed for no reason
Only simple according to the internet narratives.
The options are: a) convince Hamas to release the hostages b) convince Israel to abandon their people c) wait for the IDF to find where Hamas is hiding and free the hostages (or more likely in most cases, find the bodies of those abducted) while urging restraint.
Option a) is difficult because Hamas is a group of psychopaths. There have been some hostages released in exchange for ceasefires and release of Hamas fighters from prison, but then that just means more people the IDF will fight when Hamas stops releasing hostages. If this were a conflict out in an empty field then whatever, but since the battlefield is a densely populated urban environment, this means civilian casualties.
Option b) just isn’t going to happen.
So option c) is the only one left while there’s constant talks to negotiate a ceasefire. Current status on that: Israel has agreed to a ceasefire if Hamas releases the hostages and Hamas has said they “look favourably on a ceasefire” but they always say that.
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Electoral puritanism like this is a big part of why we now have concentration camps in America.
Thanks for that.
Funny how Democrats never used to have to complain about Purity Tests back when they were doing things like attempting to pass universal healthcare. In fact I’d literally never even heard the phrase (in that context) before last year and suddenly it’s everywhere.
The camps already existed with Biden, Trump is just putting more money into them
Yeah the downvotes you’re getting really illustrate the three monkeys approach of centrists. Outright denial not only of opinions, but objective facts. Trump immigration policy is just Biden’s turned up a notch, but with a lot of performative cruelty thrown in. Biden’s immigration policy is just Trump’s turned down a notch, with less performative cruelty. Trump vice signals, Biden virtue signaled. But their actual policies on immigration are very very similar.
Trump immigration policy is just Biden’s turned up a notch, but with a lot of performative cruelty thrown in
So what you’re saying is it’s not just Biden’s turned up a notch, he’s doing it differently and much, much worse. The idea that, because both of them are immigration policies that include deportation, they must be the same thing is infantile
One of them is in favor of deporting all of the Latinos, but really it’s the same policy lmao
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Biden ran concentration camps. I’m sorry to have to inform you of this.
I’m aware of this. Trump’s are worse.
Your moral compass is broken.
Bullshit.
Found Blue MAGA.
JFC deporting people if their asylum claim fails isn’t the same as what trump is doing. That you’re trying to equate them is mind bogglingly bad. Anything to confuse the issue and say b b both sides same, huh. I recognize your name so I’m not going to reply further.
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The puritanism is that both parties are fascist.
Both parties are equally bad, that’s why we’re letting 65 million Latinos get deported instead of not letting 65 million Latinos get deported. Less genocide is actually just as bad as more genocide
You are pretending Biden/Harris were promising less genocide, which is wishful thinking on your part. Biden/Harris let them do what they wanted to whatever degree they wanted, and pretended to fight back.
You are pretending Biden/Harris were promising less genocide, which is wishful thinking on your part.
Nope. I feel like we’re looking at this from two different perspectives. Comparing 2025 to 2024, there was always going to be more genocide. Comparing the two potential 2025s (the one in which Trump wins and the one in which Harris wins), one of them has more genocide than the other, and one of them has less genocide than the other.
Maybe if I put it this way it’ll make more sense: a smaller increase in deaths is preferable to a larger increase in deaths. Of course, a reduction in deaths would be preferable to both, but that option wasn’t available.
Where you and I will probably never agree is that you think Harris/Biden would have meant less genocide.
Biden did a bunch of lying about that, but you give him the benefit of the doubt and I cant. And Harris had a prominent bloodthirsty zionist as a husband (recent marriage) and a bloodthirsty zionist campaign manager. Thinking she’d break left after her actions and words to the contrary was never realistic. Emhoff explicitely said he’d spend his time in office fighting antisemitism, which he equates with any criticism at all of Israel.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/20/us/politics/doug-emhoff-kamala-harris.html
When both Trump and Biden give the zionists full support and free reign, theres no real distinction to be had around more or less genocide. It just doesnt exist. Harris and Biden were there to soak up campaign donations and ignore their base.
you think Harris/Biden would have meant less genocide.
…than trump. Less genocide than Trump. Who is presently committing a genocide against the Latino population in the US.
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And those four are functionally equivalent to people who didn’t vote because they’re okay with either option
Genocide is much more like driving off a cliff than having ice cream or not voting.
It’s kind of sad that I even have to say this.
I mean if we want a better analogy, Harris represented the “crash the bus into a building” party, and Trump represented the “crash the bus into a building and explode” party. 3 people are voting for building, 4 people are voting for building and explode, and 4 people are saying “I don’t care whether we explode.”
One of those 4 thinks they’re making some kind of statement by saying “I don’t want to crash at all, so I won’t be voting.” He is indistinguishable from the 3 that just don’t care
Maybe stop with the dumb fucking analogies and talk about the real situation for a change. It’s not too complex to talk about (and if it is to you, holy fuck, maybe shut up and do some reading first?) and you’re fooling nobody with your deflections.
I have no problem talking about the real situation. One of the parties is in favor of less genocide, one of the parties is in favor of more genocide, and non voters don’t care whether we get less or more genocide.
Of course it would be better for everyone we could have elected a third party, but the choice was between Harris (sells weapons to Israel) and Trump (sells more weapons to Israel and also starts a genocide here in America), and non voters didn’t care which side won. In the absence of the option you want, you have to make the best available choice.
Less genocide, but not the stopping of genocide? Man, do I not feel sorry for gringos when they act like this is a moral choice.
How would you know, anyway? They refused to acknowledge there was a genocide in the first place while they sent a record amount of money and weapons. Oh wow, such harm reduction.
Analogies are useful, not just for understanding a difficult subject, but for seeing a familiar subject in a new perspective. When your audience is eschewing logic due to compartmentalized thinking, analogies can help break them free.
When your main issue isn’t on the ballot, it doesn’t matter in the election.
The other four didn’t think this through because only one party had a subset of their coalition who opposed genocide, and also opposed 2 other genocides: the one Russia perpetrates against Ukraine, and climate change (leaving aside things like, you know, women’s rights and LGBTQ+ rights… And not as a case-in-point the internal genocide of poor people when 50,000 Americans will now die from being dropped from Medicaid thanks to a bill that only
Republicansthe cliff-divers would have passed).Hey thanks for not helping. Wait, no. No thanks. You failed everyone and yourself, guaranteed extra double genocide and learned nothing.
There’s a genocide on the bus too?
Libs will tell the craziest stories just to avoid reality.
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FPTP is the real winner here. It’s why we have Trump. Why can’t we vote for proportional representatives or ranked choice?
Fully agree with Nina Turner. If you don’t wanna do politics, you blindly leave major decisions over your life to others, who - as we can see world-wide - don’t necessarily have your interest at heart. Democracy, human rights, freedom or any other such ideas require a populace to vigilantly fight for them and not let those with opposed agendas undermine them.
But that analogy afterwards is simply dishonest on many levels.
Firstly, if you are talking about “harm reduction” or the “lesser of two evils”, ice cream is hardly a fair representation of the lesser evil.
Secondly this mixes in non-political people, who do not participate in the democratic process with moral objectors and the duped.
Thirdly: It diverts equal blame (literally in the response) to those groups and to the voters, who actually want the bigger evil or the powerful actors enacting it. This presupposes some moral value on active vs. passive behavior, which can be argued.
And lastly: Even if we find a fitting ice-cream substitute like throwing one of the passengers under the still moving bus, or - how another user suggested - braking before driving off the same cliff: The two who voted for that lesser evil also fight the four voters who are against evil harder, than they are fighting the ones who want the bigger evil. Why? Because they’d rather still drive off the cliff than not. And then they turn around and dishonestly shame the anti-driving-off the-cliff crowd for wanting to speed up instead. That is not a very good strategy.
Are they the same? No. But please keep your arguments honest, or you might get the exact opposite reaction from people, than you are hoping.
Even if you engage in politics you have such a small amount of power that it’s effectively the same as letting other people make decisions for you.
Republicans in Congress just made a bunch of decisions for me that I had no influence over despite having voted every time for the past quarter century.
Although I understand your point and would want to add that something like the Citizens United decision further diminishes power of the people without immense funds, I would like to point out, that participating in a democratic process doesn’t merely mean drawing a cross onto a piece of paper every 2 or 4 years. Much more is possible and in fact necessary.
As an example and can be witnessed right now, there is a severe lack of organizing of pro democratic forces. Which is also the result of a decades-long campaign by the capital-interest-serving political establishment to delegitimize or outright destroy such movements and organizations, from worker’s unions to independant media to the “Bernie Bros”.
Make no mistake though. They did this, because they know, that this type of collective political actions bare real power. It is upon each one of us wanting to defend democracy, basic rights and the rule of law to do our part to take back that power. Voting is but a small part of that, if you don’t have the people you need actually running, because they can’t afford to and you cannot seriously pressure those elected like the donor-class does.
It felt the same way before Citizens United. I vote and write letters and organize and the government does what it wants.
I’m sorry you feel that way and I find myself having the same thoughts from time to time. I have to concede though, that the US is in fact the center of modern Neoliberalism and legal bribery.
Yet… You know who the lobbyists and donors don’t bother talking to? Bernie Sanders (and Ron Paul when he was still in office). Why? Because they know that they have core principles. Then the question becomes: How do we organize (meaning financial resources, outreach, strategy, know-how, recruitment, analysis, policy creation, media and many more) to get more of these people into office? And how can we put pressure on elected officials to enact “our” policies?
Agenda 2025, or the decades long judicial take-over did not come from Trump, but from such organizations like the Heritage Foundation. Which of course are funded by billionaires like Peter Thiel. These people and organizations have huge advantages over the rest, that is clear. But they need more than just money to be able to put public pressure on elected officials, to the point where 25% of voters are ride-or-die with that program and a further 25% are at least ok with it or were duped.
And yes, I am well aware it is an uphill fight. But please: Don’t let bad experiences doom you to inaction. Especially when this very moment, with the daily over-reach of the republican regime, there is real potential to galvanize an effective resistance.
Too late. I hate this country and the people in it too much to care anymore.
I’ve been doing the organize thing and the pressuring thing and nothing works and things are worse than they’ve ever been.
