I have been seeing plenty of guillhotine and mollotov jokes here, and as the title says, punching nazis.
I’ve been reading a book about nonviolence and anarchism, and he basically shows how we shouldn’t use violence, even in extreme cases (like neo nazis).
The main argument is that the means dictates the ends, so if we want a non violent (and non opressing) society, punching people won’t help.
And if it is just a joke, you should probably know that some people have been jailed for decades because of jokes like these (see: avoiding the fbi, second chapter of the book above).
Obviously im up for debate, or else I wouldn’t make this post. And yes, I do stand for nonviolence.
(english is not my first language, im sorry if I made errors, or wansn’t clear.)
(if this is not pertinent, I can remake this post in c/politics or something)
(the book is The Anarchist Cookbook by Keith McHenry, if you are downloading from the internet, make sure you download it from the correct author, there is another book with the same name.)
Fascists don’t respond to logic or reasoning, they know only violence so you should speak to them in a language they understand
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00131857.2018.1519772
Violence in a vacuum? Deplorable. Violence against a person preaching or encouraging violence? Questionable. Violence against a known fascist? Absolutely acceptable.
Fascists hide in the grey areas of free speech and often make arguments, much like this post OP, that twist ethics to support their rhetoric.
https://www.npr.org/2017/08/19/544641070/explaining-again-thenazis-true-evil
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functionalism–intentionalism_debate
You may want to investigate the original author of the anarchist cookbook William Powell. He later wanted to remove the book from publication.
https://www.britannica.com/biography/William-Powell-American-writer
Also please do not follow any of the recipes, especially the match head bomb as they’re all a great way to lose fingers
So in conclusion, considering your original points sound similar to the historical defense of fascists, and that book looks to carry the language of fascists.
How serious is the author of that book about not getting punched?
When we had a bunch of white supremacists driving in their lifted trucks, yelling at the BLM protestors and threatening violence against them, there was no use in trying to argue with them. They were just interested in getting into a fight so they could justify using their guns in “self defense”.
That’s not the nature of my argument. You’re talking about an escalation of violence. I’m talking about preventing them from entering cultural space in the first place. I could spend days listing the proof that there are Nazis in our police and armed forces. That leftists are often the only ones targeted by police.
I’m talking about direct interpersonal conversation and action.
Those guys in lifted trucks are useful idiots.
I open carry at counter protests, I open carry at Drag Story Time. I often have to have long protracted discussions with the police when I protest. Mostly about my protect trans kids and TERF Elimination Squad morale patches and what loadout I have. I am often silent during chants at the protests I attend.
However I’ve never seen direct instigation from counter protesters like you’re describing, directed at me. They tend to focus on the vocal protestors. I stand next to the megaphone with ear pro on. I try to move slowly and predictably.
I’m not there to return fire. I’m not there to keep any peace. I’m absolutely not there to instigate or escalate anything.
This is only my personal experience and means nothing. I am not suggesting this is a useful or necessary act. I’m not encouraging anyone to do this. I never bring a concealed weapon. I always coordinate with the organizers of the event or the protest. I will happily leave if asked however I’ve never been asked before or after to not attend. I only carry at the protest and do not bring weapons into planning spaces or enclosed areas.
Edit: Since I started going a couple few have joined me. There are much more yelling contests now. But there’s no shoving or pulling or fighting over flags and signs anymore. I really hope in a couple years shit mellows out and I can chant again. “Bottoms Tops we all hate cops!” Is a newer one I really like.
…do you actually open carry at kids story time?
America sounds fucking insane.
This is a false dichotomy. There are effective ways to defeat Nazis beyond punching them or reasoned debate.
Violence is justified in life or death struggles where other options have become unrealistic. That’s not the situation we’re in in the West 99% of the time. Deplatforming, doxxing, civil resistance, and various other forms of nonviolent struggle all have a better track record than street brawls which have done nothing but empower fascists. In fact, the sense of fear and chaos that these events creates is exactly the environment in which fascism will thrive. Street brawls between fascists and leftists were prominent in the Weimar Republic and did nothing to stop Nazi power—if anything it made it easier for the right to unite and paint leftists as unreasonable extremists. We see similar patterns happening today.
Politics is not the same as armed struggle. We are not engaged in armed struggle against fascism in the west. Perhaps we will be but right now one of our goals should be to avoid that becoming necessary. In the current moment public relations and persuasion matter immensely. Punching Nazis achieves little other than making people lose sight of the dangers of fascism and focus instead on “extremism” from “both sides”.
And OP has done nothing to suggest they are sympathetic to fascism so your threats against them are extremely rude and unjustified.
You can mock and deride them in media of course. But when a Nazi asks about violence you always respond with language they understand.
I disagree. Fascists want to simply every conflict this way—“They’re coming to kill you, so we need to kill then first”. By accepting the conflict on those terms, you’ve already conceded a rhetorical battle.
Leftists have rarely excelled at martial conflict. It’s not typically our strength. Our strength instead is that we fundamentally want to help people and make the world more free and just. We win by making sure people understand that. Getting into fist fights with Nazis undermines this strategy and doesn’t do anything to fundamentally undermine their power.
Nazis aren’t interested in what communists have to say. A communist, for the record, is anyone a Nazi disagrees with. The only acceptable place for a communist, according to a nazi, is in the ground. If you want to let Nazis come for you, I guess that’s fine for you. When Nazis co.e for your loved ones and you Stans there like a fucking coward and let them take them because “much precious nonviolence” I guess that’s your call.
I can kick 200cm from the ground, so I’m going to use that tool to keep the world just :/
Edit OH SHIT OH SHIT 180CM not 200 I’m not Jet Li
Feel free to debate your way out of the camps, bro.
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If you don’t punch back they will simply continue to steamroll anyone they see as inferior.
We should punch first, lest we end up with Nazis on public street corners. Oh wait…
The contract of tolerance requires swift shutting down of the intolerant 🤛
I’m not big on violence, and I don’t enjoy hitting people, but I’ve done it a couple of times and I’m always willing to throw down with nazis. If we’re not willing to defend ourselves and others, we might as well just hand them the keys and let them do whatever they want. That’s gonna be a hard no for me.
This. There are just certain ideologies that are so anti-human that the only way to deal with them is violence because they can’t be tolerated or reasoned with. Nazis know exactly what history says about them and they actively choose these hateful ideologies to believe in and follow. I wouldn’t punch a random person on the street unless they were a threat. Nazis by their very existence are a threat. That threat is not existential.
The whole “Punch a Nazi Day!” has two origins:
Captain America #1 - 12/20/1940 - A full YEAR before the US entered the war:
Right Wing Nazi Richard Spencer getting punched during a live interview:
Depends on the context, and how serious and violent the Nazi. If they’re just an isolated idiot who isn’t politically active and isn’t stupid or thick-headed enough to actually follow through on their claimed beliefs, then violence isn’t really justified. They’re an idiot, but not a threat. The problem is with anymore more dedicated or crazy than that. Past that point, you immediately get to people who want to murder or enslave hundreds of millions. Thats not hyperbolic, that’s literally the goal of Nazi beliefs, and a logical extention of almost every belief that stems out of it or is adjacent to it. In theory, yes, it’d be nice to be able to talk down people like this, or use existing systems of power to force them to places where there isn’t a risk of them trying to murder or enslave people, but unfortunately, when you’re talking about groups who don’t respect human lives, the law, or anyone but their designated, arbitrary in-group, then those aren’t always viable means. This is esspecially true if that person is already in a potition of power. Basically, if someone wants to kill you, you can’t always wait for them to successfully aquire the means to do so before acting. This isn’t hyperbole or metaphor, this is literally what we’re talking about here. The problem is in drawing a line of who is an actual threat, and if there are other means to “disarm” them.
- “Self-defense is not violence!”
- “No tolerance for intolerance!”
- you don’t want your place becoming a Nazi bar
I’m 52 now so I don’t punch anyone anymore. But back in the mid '80s to early '90s I was one of a few skatepunks that ran around with some ofe the local Unity Skins. We did a fair bit of nazi punching (and ax handling). This was toward the end of lace codes and wearing patches on bomber jackets. I’m not sure we changed anyone’s mind but for a few years, no one was rocking confederate flags or white laces in the open. But I’m just some random guy online so take everything I say with a grain of salt.
(White, red, and yellow laces still give me pause. My teen came home one day wearing yellow laces and we had to have a talk. After some fact checking, and him explaining some stuff, I let it go and got a pair of yellows for my boots. Funny how things change over time and areas).
I’m just curious what your interpretation of yellow laces is. I’m not a punk but am vaguely aware of lace codes, and every list I see online has yellow as anti-racist, but I know it varied a bit from place to place.
Back a few lifetimes ago in this area it was anti-gay.
Could you expand on the laces thing? I’ve never heard of laces (white, yellow or anything else) signifying anything in this topic.
Yeah, absolutely. It’s’s an old Skinhead/Bonehead thing. You’d rock different colors to say what you sort of believed. Red was neo-nazi, white was klan or white power, blue I think was pro cop, yellow was anti-gay, green was something bad but I don’t remember what, may be you robbed everyone. This was kind of nationwide but varied by area somewhat. Like blue could mean pro cop or anticop. This was way before think blue line stuff.
So growing up you’d see a bunch of bone heads strutting around with white laces and you’d know they were all racist shiteaters.
Mostly I think it was a way for skins to decide who to fight. Like I say, I was a punk, so not as much into fighting for fun like most skins were. I just ran with some because being a skater and a punk then was a little harder if you got caught alone. And having friends that liked to fight was just good sense.
Thanks, that’s really interesting. I guess black laces were the only safe option!
Just looked it up. White is white pride, red is neo-nazi (and often, willing to spill blood), yellow is anti-racist. Not sure why that last one’s a bad thing, though.
Black was neutral, because that’s the colour doc martens usually come with.
Thank you for being less lazy than me! Still though, white laces are pretty common. I wouldn’t want to be mistaken for a white supremacist just because of that.
Lace codes (and brace or strap codes I’m reminded above) are largely dead now. It started letting up when it was discovered how dope blue Docs looked with red laces.
They are all fun lace colors, and Nazis get to decide nothing.
I don’t think nazis are the ones that decided the gay pride colour though (it was purple). I think it was someone else that decided.
What’s ax handling? Captain Kirk double hand chop?
Hitting a guy with an ax handle. There’s not a lot of nuance or grace in it.
Yeah, ok. Was wondering if it was a move, or the literal interpretation
43 year old here. By the late 90s most of the laces and braces stuff was over in my local scene (Austin, TX). SHARPs learned it was easier to just have a mowhawk or spikes than explaining that yes they were a skinhead but not Nazis or racist.
With that said there were still Nazis that would come around to the clubs from time to time. And it usually ended up with them getting thrown out. Then one night one of them went into the pit and started throwing punches. The whole lot of them got dragged out the back by a bunch of guys a lot larger than me. 10 minutes later they came back in minus the Nazis. After that night I never saw another Nazi at a show again.
See? The system works!
punching nazis is a meme at this point, which may sound good on paper, but in practice just mean the non-nazi going to jail and getting a criminal record
One worth bragging about to any and all future employers.
I’m not gonna do punch anyone but I’d unrepentantly nullify any nazi punching trial jury i end up on. If the movement develops legs that carry it in the wrong direction, I’ll cease supporting it. For now, I’ll grin at the pain of the deplorables.
If they symathise with nazi ideology, I’ll punch them for sure.
However most people I’ve seen that use those symbols are simply misinformed about the nazi ideology. I think that not knowing isn’t wrong; not learning is.
I mean… I’ve punched Nazis. I’d prolly do it again.
That’s funny because I read a book (The Failure of Nonviolence) that pretty convincingly argues that no movement has truly accomplished its goals without either outright violence or relying on the threat of violence from aligned parties.
I am serious that they should be punched. I am a non-violent person, so I hope that someone better fit for the job does it. If faced with a nazi that I think I can take or one that I think I can sorta take, I might punch them myself.
I didn’t think this way until I read, Culture Warlords: My Journey Into the Dark Web of White Supremacy, by Talia Levin. After, I am firmly in the “punch a nazi” camp.
This is the typical impotent opinion I hear from mentally healthy people. I am not.
So if I see one in public, even if they are surrounded by their friends, I will punch the ever living fuck out of them for you, since you are too limp-dick to do it yourself.
All the edge of a plastic spoon
I have a good life and don’t wish to encounter physical harm, so thanks for offering to do it for me. Too bad you won’t be there if / when I encounter a nazi. It would have been great to have you fight on my behalf.
See the thing about the supposed cycle of violence is that it implies equal fault and innocence of both sides. It relies on toleration theory.
Toleration is a treaty, when you break it you are no longer protected by it. It is an entirely justifiable and moral act to instigate violence against fascists, because their very ideology is a violation of the treaty of toleration, and their organization is one which cannot sustain itself in the face of repeated attacks.
You often hear complaints about how enforcing internet rules against the fascists just leads to whackamole bans, but the thing is that every successive ban leaves the fascists less coordinated, less emboldened, and more isolated. There is a critical point of punitive and preventative acts where a fascist org is effectively atomized and anyone worth pulling out has been rock bottomed into a holding space where they can be rehabbed.
Peaceful methods are what can be achieved after you’ve destroyed them, either through hounding operations making it less and less possible for them to group up and act together, or by normalizing violence and intolerance against them to the extent that they are at least afraid enough to stop trying to not be sniveling cowards such as the fascist naturally is.
The true fascist is only kept quiet in an environment of fear, where they know that trying to stick their heads up will get it lopped off in short order. An environment where even peacible means of antifascism still include complete social ostracism and career destruction, and where persistent fascism is met with swift and appropriate violent rejection.
Don’t just punch the Nazis, dox them to their families and employers and communities, encourage others to be armed and ready to attack preemptively in their presence, organize around making that Nazi specifically know their rightful place is silent and afraid until they’ve cut the shit and stopped being a nazi, before someone ends up killing them in self defense.
