For mechanically difficult games, definitely agree. Celeste is an example I usually bring up - it’s a platformer that can get pretty tough at times, especially in the after-story optional levels. But it also has one of the most flexible and useful accessibility modes I’ve ever seen. It allows you to adjust basically every aspect of the game a player might struggle with (game speed, additional jumps, timed mechanics, you name it). And the game itself is very good as well.
It also has a different sort of difficulty. It’s all in bite size chunks, and you can try again immediately. It never feels punishing in the way Souls games do.
Honestly… I disagree. What is accessibility? Every souls game has been beaten with dance pads, rock band drum kits and guitars. They’re also frequently beaten by people with serious disabilities using specialized controllers. Input speed is not an issue here, Souls has always been about carefully choosing your moves to manage the end lag and stamina cost of your actions. It’s about making the right move, not about moving quickly or pressing a lot of buttons at once.
IMHO, accessibility is frequently cited as an excuse for lower difficulties here, when in reality the difficulty isn’t a serious part of the barrier for disabled players. It could use better accessibility options, like configurable colourblind modes, audio indicators, more configurable text size, some kind of clear colour indicators on attacks for low vision, but difficulty? No.
There are also lots of good reasons not to add explicit difficulty options, which is y’know, why From Soft haven’t done it yet.
That’s a fair argument then, but… this is literally what accessibility means, whether or not you can “access” the thing.
If someone isn’t willing to invest the time or frustration into Souls, then fair enough, but that’s a matter of priorities/convenience, not a matter of accessibility.
Also, frankly, the difficulty of Souls for regular people is insanely overblown. Stuff like “Prepare to Die” is just a marketing gimmick, and the games have become substantially easier and more flexible over time. Like in Elden Ring, where you can leave bosses for later, and can frequently just bypass them entirely, experiment with an insane variety of builds, use effective ways to grind ridiculous amounts of souls, and just generally become ridiculously powerful. They’ve done essentially everything but creating an explicit “easy mode” to make the game playable for as many people as possible. If you want an easy mode, basically every souls game has builds or guides that function as that easy mode.
Difficulty counts as an access barrier. You always have to consider that there are people who, for whatever reason, have a skill capacity that is lower than required for the game in question. And for those people the game will be inaccessible.
Time is also an accessibility factor. If a person with a disability or lower skill has to grind and extend the playtime for 3-4x what a normal player would have, that’s not inaccessible but it’s less accessible comparatively. Especially if that kills the fun.
That being said obviously these things can be tweaked within reason and the problem can’t be solved for every player unfortunately. And they don’t need to be. Some games can just be too hard for some players.
The ultimate point for me just seems to be that the community needs to be listened to. You shouldn’t ever be in the positions as a dev where you are telling disabled or low skill gamers to get good or no dice. If a large portion of people are saying “I’d love to enjoy the art you’ve made, but I can’t. My disability/inability is stopping me” then I’d change my approach.
I think there is a balance that can be struck, grinding is one of the balances and you’re right there are ways to make those games easier that way. But the other people are also right, the games need to be hard sometimes. I just want people to stop being dismissive of people who want to enjoy the same entertainment and art but can’t just because of difficulty.
Apologies in advance for the essay lol, Souls is one of my favourite franchises, and I’ve spent a lot of time thinking and talking about these games.
You always have to consider that there are people who, for whatever reason, have a skill capacity that is lower than required for the game in question.
I don’t think Souls requires any amount of skill beyond just… basic understanding of how to control a 3D character. They even tutorialize that, actually. Everyone starts somewhere, I personally got thrashed immediately after the tutorial in Dark Souls 1, and it took me hours to beat the first proper boss, with many deaths to regular enemies. Like any good video game, Souls teaches you the skills you need progressively, and gets gradually harder and asks more of the player over time. It’s not like just starting Guitar Hero on the highest difficulty, the game is balanced for anyone.
Time is also an accessibility factor.
I don’t actually think these games require an excessive time investment. Howlongtobeat puts Dark Souls Remastered’s Main Story at 30 hours. Even if you’re somehow spending 4x that time, that still only puts it at 120 hours, which isn’t unreasonable, lots of games have runtimes around that length.
I also take issue with the idea that you can consistently take 3-4x longer than most. In reality, you only get seriously walled a handful of times learning the game, and surpassing those tough challenges teaches you how to play. For example, in Sekiro, I got walled for hours on one of the games earliest minibosses, but once I got a solid enough grasp on the game to beat him, I wasn’t seriously walled like that again for several hours of gameplay. Getting stuck just means there are lessons you’re learning, and you tend to remember what you struggled hard to learn.
The ultimate point for me just seems to be that the community needs to be listened to.
A key part of developing anything for millions of people is that you have to learn what feedback to take and how to implement it properly. From Soft absolutely has listened to their community. First of all, there’s a vocal community that doesn’t want difficulties, which is what this whole post is joking about. I’d argue From Soft have done a phenomenal job of listening to their audience, and catering to the niche of people that want a tough, unyielding experience is how they’ve slowly built themselves into the multi-GotY juggernaut they are now.
But second of all, they’ve put a ton of effort into introducing ways to make the game easier. In Sekiro, if you’re hard stuck on a boss, tough luck, that game is mostly linear, and has key story moments that leave you no alternatives but to “git gud”. In Elden Ring, you can go elsewhere to learn the game more against a different boss, level up, and come back. In most cases, you don’t even need to come back. You can also explore different builds, respec your character, try a different weapon or spell or summon, summon a friend in multiplayer, go find more equipment, anything.
And personally, I really preferred Sekiro, it’s my favourite game they’ve ever made. I got stuck for hours on every key boss, and that game absolutely wiped the floor with me. It has barely any buildcraft, you truly do just have to “git gud”. And the purity of that experience really speaks to me and what I want out of a game. There’s no “questioning if I’m doing it wrong”, I just need to get in there and learn the required skills head on.
Ultimately, I’m really just tired of being villainized (not that your comment is doing that, to be clear) for wanting some games to pursue a single well-crafted and balanced hard experience that challenges me to push myself, when basically everything else on the market is pursuing the widest audience possible, with aggressive hints telling you how to do puzzles before you can even think, and several difficulty options that make things incredibly easy, at the cost of the harder difficulties usually being poorly balanced and uneven. I’m not going around saying every Mario game needs to be a Kaizo, with no way to tone it down, but it feels like many are coming to my favourite games and telling me they’re bad for being what I love.
Especially when I feel like From Soft is hitting that balance you’re talking about, and giving the player lots of options, but some people will seemingly just never be satisfied until they can choose “Easy” from the start screen. I don’t feel like me or From Soft is being dismissive when there are an abundance of accommodations and options to make things easier, you just need to actually engage with the game to use them.
I don’t think Souls requires any amount of skill beyond just… basic understanding of how to control a 3D character.
That’s obviously not true. Try playing an FPS with a mouse and keyboard vs controller and you’ll see understanding how to do something theoretically is less than half the battle. Say someone is missing arms so plays with their feet, it is far far more difficult to get a higher level of precision, and some people just won’t be able to no matter the amount of practice. People have a peak of reaction time no matter the amount of practice, and its different for different people. People have a peak of ability to move with precision no matter the amount of practice(see dyspraxia). People have shakes that cannot be controlled no matter the amount of practice.
I also take issue with the idea that you can consistently take 3-4x longer than most. In reality, you only get seriously walled a handful of times learning the game, and surpassing those tough challenges teaches you how to play. For example, in Sekiro, I got walled for hours on one of the games earliest minibosses, but once I got a solid enough grasp on the game to beat him, I wasn’t seriously walled like that again for several hours of gameplay. Getting stuck just means there are lessons you’re learning, and you tend to remember what you struggled hard to learn.
Ignoring that that experience just isn’t fun for a lot of people, you’re using your own experience of your own ability.
Ultimately, I’m really just tired of being villainized (not that your comment is doing that, to be clear) for wanting some games to pursue a single well-crafted and balanced hard experience that challenges me to push myself,
… It doesn’t detract from your experience at all to add an optional mode for quick save or other similar features.
Accessibility is literally how this thread started. I also disagree that the game requires a high degree of precision. Dark Souls originally came out with only 8-directional rolling, which you could do on a D-Pad, Fight Stick, or any other accessible controller. There’s no FPS-style aiming or anything, and again, you can find challenge runs of people beating the game while wearing oven mitts and other such shenanigans. The series main difficulty is in making the right decisions with the committed attack animations, end lag, and stagger mechanics, not quick reactions or precise inputs, although I’ll absolutely grant that the combat has become faster over time. Not that you can’t conquer the game with good buildcraft anyway, check out an “all hit run” for ways to beat Elden Ring while literally not dodging any attacks.
Ignoring that that experience just isn’t fun for a lot of people, you’re using your own experience of your own ability.
Sure, but skills and muscle memory are skills and muscle memory. Unless you’re referring to learning disabilities, people improve at things with practice, and time spent practicing the combat will make you better at the combat.
… It doesn’t detract from your experience at all to add an optional mode for quick save or other similar features.
I’ve also replied to that in this thread. But I’ll also add that something like a quick save is very different from adding a new scaled difficulty option, and Souls already implements a wealth of options to make the game easier. Adding another option in that same vein is a separate conversation from adding an Easy Mode.
P.S. I don’t mean to be snarky by linking my own comments. It’s understandable that you wouldn’t constantly be re-reading every comment I’ve made on this thread before replying, but I am getting a bit fatigued after debating this all day with Lemmy, and don’t feel a need to re-hash the same arguments here.
Accessibility is literally how this thread started.
What? Yea? Sorry maybe you mixed me up with someone else I didn’t deny that.
I also disagree that the game requires a high degree of precision. Dark Souls originally came out with only 8-directional rolling, which you could do on a D-Pad, Fight Stick, or any other accessible controller.
Its not just a matter of precision in being able to input a control, its being able to reliably input a control quickly.
you can find challenge runs of people beating the game while wearing oven mitts and other such shenanigans.
Again, someone being able to do something doesn’t mean everyone can.
The series main difficulty is in making the right decisions with the committed attack animations, end lag, and stagger mechanics, not quick reactions or precise inputs
Yea this I wouldn’t agree with, there definitely is a lot of quick inputs needed
Sure, but skills and muscle memory are skills and muscle memory. Unless you’re referring to learning disabilities, people improve at things with practice, and time spent practicing the combat will make you better at the combat.
Look into stuff like dysgraphia and dyspraxia, or even speech impediments. People can practice things repeatedly, but still because of muscle or neurological issues be unable to reliably perform certain actions. Obviously practice can improve, or it might not, or there might be a ceiling much lower than people without those issues- as well as improving much more slowly. What you seem to be misunderstanding is people aren’t saying its impossible for anyone to play the game with differing levels of ability, they are saying it might not be viable- and they won’t necessarily follow the same path of improvement that you did. This could make it way more frustrating or even impossible to finish the game.
I’ve also replied to that in this thread. But I’ll also add that something like a quick save is very different from adding a new scaled difficulty option, and Souls already implements a wealth of options to make the game easier. Adding another option in that same vein is a separate conversation from adding an Easy Mode.
P.S. I don’t mean to be snarky by linking my own comments. It’s understandable that you wouldn’t constantly be re-reading every comment I’ve made on this thread before replying, but I am getting a bit fatigued after debating this all day with Lemmy, and don’t feel a need to re-hash the same arguments here.
Fair, at least from my perspective it seems like you’re kinda talking past people though of course I would think that.
Accessibility also includes time constraints. You say yourself, it took you hours to get to a point where you could get through the game, let alone the hours it takes to just pass through the game with that aside. I personally missed out on a lot of Fromsoft’s stuff because, at the time, I was working 70+ hours a week, with 3 hours of commuting. I would have loved to spent some of the little free time I had putzing around in those games, an experience their art. However, I never had the time to spend double digit hours honing skills, just to get through the game in a reasonable time frame. Sure, now that I don’t work like that, I prefer games with high difficulty, doesn’t mean that when I play those games, now that I have time, I still don’t wish I had that access back then. If you can access a broader audience by offering a selected difficulty, why not? Many games with the highest skill ceilings have, traditionally, had difficulty modes, no on talks shit on all the boomer shooters for having easy/hard/harder/nightmare modes.
Mmm, I feel like under heavy time constraints like that, there are worse barriers than difficulty to a game’s experience. For example, it’s hard to appreciate a narrative and big reveals when you’re spreading your play out so much that it’s hard to remember who characters are. It’s also hard to enjoy exploring a large space, and feeling like you’ve covered it well.
Elden Ring, for example, is a massive game. I soared through Elden Ring, as I played the whole franchise (besides what’s locked to PlayStation) first, and happened to stumble into an extremely powerful build. The game still took me 140 hours, including the DLC.
I also still don’t think it’s an accessibility constraint. I’d totally understand why you don’t want to commit to a 150hr experience when you’re playing less than 3hrs a week, you’d be stuck on it for a whole year. But learning over time in little pieces is totally viable. Stuff like muscle memory and skill sticks with you, I could put down Souls for the next few years and when I came back I’d still be much better at it than when I first sat down.
Also, I actually find small time slots one of the best ways to conquer a tough challenge. When I get hard stuck, like I did on the final boss of the ER DLC, I chose to play like, 20 minutes of attempts a night, and then go to bed and sleep on it. We know from academia that studying something right before you sleep helps, since your brain can lock that fresh experience into memory better. You’re also starting each attempt “fresh”, in that you aren’t already frustrated and annoyed by the boss. And this worked great, it took a boss that I couldn’t beat with a whole free evening, and I beat it after only a few days. It’s a technique I’ve used repeatedly.
All that to say, I don’t think difficulty is the best reason to not play a Souls game while working 70+ hour weeks. And I don’t think it’s exclusive to Souls, I’d also avoid story-heavy JRPGs, and massive open worlds in general. Not that you couldn’t sacrifice the time to play any of those things, but frankly, I’d recommend a game that’s better consumed in bits and pieces, such as GotY nominee Balatro, a competitive multiplayer game with constrained matches, or a roguelike experience such as Hades. And that’s not that odd, I also wouldn’t recommend reading an epic novel like Dune, or trying to binge Game of Thrones or something.
My honest take on your story, is that I’m really glad Souls didn’t have an easy mode for you at that time. As you say, you prefer games with high difficulty now. I would hate for you to have played a compromised version of what From Software carefully designed here, when the intended experience ultimately really worked for you. It’s the same reason I avoid trailers for games I know I want to play, that is, if you would’ve even came back to replay a game you’d already “beaten”.
In other comments, I’ve already talked about my friend who only played games on easy before playing Souls, which made him realize how much he enjoyed hard games and the rest of beating a tough challenge. He fell in love with the experience From Software set out to make. If DS1 had had an easy mode at that time, I’m not sure he would’ve ever learned that about himself, because he would’ve played it on easy. He might’ve enjoyed the art, and the visual design of the creatures, but it’s only because From Software had the confidence to assert their intended vision that it’s his favourite game and franchise ever made.
Your first point about spreading out the narrative in such a way… that is how most media worked until very recently. I grew up waiting upwards of months for the next installment, if those are large installments, years. Also, Elden ring came out after I stopped working those hours, I am mostly having this experience, in terms of Fromsoft games, with Demon’s Souls - Sekiro, but that doesn’t change the argument, just putting up my time frame.
I am more likely to not retain the patterns of attack, etc., when I have to break it up, in such a fashion, unlike the experience of seeing the new things, and partaking in the world, and its lore.
The reason I was unable to get through the souls games was that I had time to learn things like the attack patterns of the monsters, or time to experience the world and its lore in a way the memorization part was getting in the way of. When I learned something, and returned to it weeks later, I had to relearn a lot of the rote aspects of the game play. This blocks access to me experiencing the art, and lore, which is more important to me, in such games, than the mechanics of it. So, yes, I lost access.
Having now played the games, I do not wish it had this barrier back then, as I still would have preferred to experienced and easier version, so that I could participate in the larger zeitgeist, of the pop culture of the time, and then got to enjoy it how it is, now that I have time. Let me repeat that, I would have preferred to have had an easy mode, back when it was new, to experience my preferred part, when it was most culturally relevant. Now that I have played them, I STILL would have preferred that, even if I never got to experience it otherwise.
You are basically telling me how YOU would prefer to do something, and you are glad I had to conform to YOUR preferences. Meanwhile, having the option for and easier mode, would not have changed YOUR experience at all, unless YOU choose to. While my suggestion would not have affected your experience, it would have allowed me to have experienced the games when they was at their relevance peak. Meanwhile, what you ask for affects me in a negative way. To say that an option for an easy mode, on the screen, when you start, that you do not have to select, would damage your experience, is wild. That is very, very, weird. You are adamant the idea that someone could have a variant in preferences, that affect you in no way, would damage your experience because what? Because you had to see the option on the screen? Because people you deem lesser gamers would have played it? Is this some weird ideological axiom? Because people are simply doing something different than you? What is it that bothers you so much about other people having a different choice, you don’t need to make, or experience?
Ok, hang on. I replied to this initially while annoyed, and blew past some of the key points. But I do actually want to talk about the whole “participating in the zeitgeist” thing.
A large part of the reasons Dark Souls doesn’t have difficulties is to create that social element. Gonna stick with Elden Ring for my examples here, because I missed most of the online discussion around Sekiro. But from what I saw, the majority of the discussion online was about how hard certain bosses were, shared experiences like getting your ass kicked by Tree Sentinel, or Margit “putting your foolish ambitions to rest”. If Elden Ring really did have an easy mode, that was easy enough for someone to beat the game without “learning the attack patterns of the monsters”, and to keep up with the diehard playerbase while working 70+ hour work weeks, would they really have felt included in those conversations? Would they have been able to share the excitement at beating a boss that they struggled with for hours, without actually struggling for that time? There’s an intentional design decision here. To quote Miyazaki from when Sekiro released:
We want everyone to feel that sense of accomplishment. We want everyone to feel elated and to join that discussion on the same level. We feel if there’s different difficulties, that’s going to segment and fragment the user base. People will have different experiences based on that [differing difficulty level]. This is something we take to heart when we design games. It’s been the same way for previous titles and it’s very much the same with Sekiro.
If all you really wanted was to just… experience the art and story, and see the cool enemy designs, you could always watch a youtube let’s play or something as well. The ultimate easy mode, with a defined length of how long it will take. But if you wanted to commiserate about tough challenges and the experience you went through, then you kinda need to actually have that experience.
I’ll also add, that stuff doesn’t go away. I was excited by the hype around Elden Ring too. It’s what pushed me to start Dark Souls 1, and then play 2, 3, Sekiro, and finally Elden Ring. I missed the initial hype around all of those games, but that cultural stuff is still there. I built up a youtube playlist while playing each game and once I finished them I would catch up on Illusory Wall, Zullie the Witch, Vaati, and challenge runs and Lockout Bingos from the likes of Lil’ Aggy or Ymfah. My friends were also excited to see me play the games. I may not have experienced the Anor Londo archers until years after they did, but it was still fun to talk to them about it, and they were excited to reminisce and replay the game alongside me.
I eventually did get to participate in the fun that was Shadow of the Erdtree releasing soon after I beat Elden Ring. And that was great, and special. It was fun to see that final boss get nerfed soon after I beat it, for example. I do feel sorry that you missed the moment of Sekiro releasing. But ultimately I don’t think your anecdotal experience is more important than say, my friend who always picked easy and didn’t realize how much he loved a tough challenge. Or any of the “Dark Souls saved my life” people, who might’ve picked easy if it was offered and not had that experience. Or the designers at From Software who worked hard to create something special and have the right to not offer a way to half-ass it and “fragment the user base”.
Skill issue on FromSoft’s part, and I say that as someone who has been a fan of their games longer than most people in this thread - more than a decade before even Demon’s Souls. Their original talent was always in detailed, immersive world design. Their gameplay was unpolished and experimental, but that’s something I liked about them. They got a smash hit with Demon’s and Dark Souls and made a hard pivot towards iterating on that formula. They still embrace their roots as a studio focused on detailed world building, but they’re trying to move more towards action and encounter design to cater to Souls fans. Where once they were highly experimental, now they seem afraid to try anything different.
A better studio could find a way for players to share that struggle and triumph while still allowing players of different skill levels to enjoy everything the game has to offer. That studio would be Supergiant with Hades’ God Mode option, which slowly gives more damage resistance each time you die so the player still struggles and gets better until the handicap and their improving skill meet in the middle. In the context of Souls, this could be separate for each boss. Or another entirely different approach could be taken. The point is merely that there are ways for players of different skill levels to still share in the same struggles, FromSoft is just unwilling or incapable of finding them.
So as a longtime FromSoft fan, I think they’re the ones who need to git gud.
So, I was there, missing it. Though this doesn’t apply to elden ring, as that came out after I changed my work life.
The conversation was not simply about the difficulty and moves. Like, most of the conversations happening around me were about the lore, what people thought was happening considering X, Y, and Z, etc. The time the difficulty, mechanics, etc., took the spotlight, was over in a week or so, and mostly relegated to people asking for help with one thing, or another, new found tactics, and speed run methods. So it, fairly rapidly, evened out. Even if you look at YT videos about those games, at least a similar amount are focused on the lore, as the mechanics, though those were initial chatter. They basically only came up in a a month or so as a broad statements of difficulty, or when some new trick was found, until it circulated. There was easily enough to have be an active part of those conversations. Much more than “Oh, you know my work schedule, don’t have time”.
That stuff doesn’t go away online. However, in person, with the exception of hardcore fans, it definitely does fade away. Occasionally something will be brought up in a bout of nostalgia, or in comparison to something contemporary, but it does fade away.
If all you really wanted was to just… experience the art and story, and see the cool enemy designs, you could always watch a youtube let’s play or something as well
You truly do not understand the ways in which I, and many others. enjoy things, if you think this is the same. This statement leads me to believe that many perspectives you do not hold are completely alien to you.
Your anecdotal experience is not worth more than mine either, and my suggestions do not force themselves upon you.
Well alright, I’m choosing to disregard the fact that this is 90% insults and calling me a weirdo freak. Thanks for that, btw, I’ve put a lot of effort into expressing myself clearly across a lot of different comments here.
In the latter half of this comment, I articulated why I feel an easy mode actually does make playing the game worse, even if you don’t select it. I also articulated why a simple scaling difficulty wouldn’t really work.
And in the latter half of this comment (start at “But I also think games are art”), I expressed why I think an Easy mode hasn’t been added, and wouldn’t be the same experience.
To add to that final point, the reason I don’t want others to play an easy mode isn’t because I’m a loser and beating Souls is the only way I know I’m a real man. I just think Souls is an amazing and unique offering, and it would be a real shame for someone to play the game on easy (which would “break the game itself” in Miyazaki’s words) and think that’s all there was.
I want more people to give it a try and experience it, and hopefully love it, not less. But just like it’s frustrating to watch a movie you love with someone who’s on their phone the whole time, it would be frustrating to see a ton of people play a kneecapped version of one of my favourite things and end up not “getting it”. And it would be more of a loss for them than me. It’s just the same Miyazaki quote over again, both me and him love what has been made here, and want more people to experience it, but not at the expense of compromising it. To paraphrase the end of his quote, would we even be talking about it if From Soft hadn’t had the confidence to stick to their intended vision?
“If we really wanted the whole world to play the game, we could just crank the difficulty down more and more. But that wasn’t the right approach,” he said.
“Had we taken that approach, I don’t think the game would have done what it did, because the sense of achievement that players gain from overcoming these hurdles is such a fundamental part of the experience. Turning down difficulty would strip the game of that joy - which, in my eyes, would break the game itself.”
90% calling you names? in the last 1/4 I brought up how it is weird to be bothered by the experience of others, when they don’t affect you, then pushed for a reasoning of it, by laying down an array of possibilities, and then asking what yours was. I used the word weird twice, and it was in relationship to the behavior, not the person. My guy, you are way too sensitive, like you imagined something isn’t there, if this is really how you viewed that comment.
There is more to scaling that just HP/Damage. It isn’t that great of a challenge to add in more time for response, and reduce pattern complexity so you don’t have memorize as much, or for as long. This is how many FPS games, Fighting games, and RTS games have done it for decades. No one bemoans Quake for having something other than nightmare, or Mortal Combat for having an easy option. Hell, in Sekiro, giving more time to respond for parries/blocks, and reducing the number needed, in order to execute the instant kill function, would have worked. There are many ways difficulty could be changed. Even if they did the dumb thing by reducing the HP of enemies, and increasing the damage you do, if normal is just as it was intended, how did it change your personal experience, since you wouldn’t play the game?
It is possible to disagree, and have a discourse about it, with the creators. You don’t have to accept artist/authorial intent as if it was the law of reality governing their product. I agree with him that people who enjoy those challenges will get more from a game than they would otherwise. However I think it is weird, maybe even self-centered in nature, to assume that everyone would get that increase in satisfaction, for the same reasons, as he does. He is free to say he doesn’t want to do this, and people who play his games are free to disagree with him on the subject.
I wanna play a game with story interspersed with fun action combat… not keen on dying a million tonnes until I learn the timings for each enemy in order to be able to defeat them and get the next bit of story. Soulslike games aren’t accessible to me.
I mean, Souls is accessible to you, it sounds like it just isn’t for you. There are tons of games that I wish were made in a way that I’d enjoy more, features I’ve disliked, etc. But in almost all of those cases, someone loves those features the way they are, as is.
Like, for example, I don’t love JRPG combat. I would love to play and enjoy Persona 5, but eh, I’m just not interested in investing in those systems to play that game. But that game is beloved, as is. I would never go petition Atlus to make Persona 6 into a Soulslike so that I “could” play it.
And that’s great, there are a ridiculous amount of great games coming out every year, far more than I or basically anyone but full-time streamers have the time to play. So just… go play what you like?
Trying to make games that are “for” everyone is how we end up with soulless bland titles like Ubisoft keeps pumping out. Good games have to take risks, and make interesting decisions that alienate some and engage others.
I enjoy souls games and I’m okay with their difficulty but I honestly don’t get how the possibility of an easy mode upsets so many people. It doesn’t require much development time, if any, to scale down enemies.
This isn’t like implementing something that doesn’t exist or that fundamentally changes the gameplay. Scaling already exists.
It has literally 0 impact on your experience and would allow others to enjoy the game as much as you do.
This isn’t like implementing something that doesn’t exist or that fundamentally changes the gameplay. Scaling already exists.
Scaling sounds like it’d work, but in actuality, these games are designed with tough mechanics that you really have to learn before they make things more difficult. Take Sekiro for example. The endgame bosses will absolutely bully you. I’m not sure even 10x damage and health would help you get past the final boss if you don’t know what you’re doing.
While playing through the game, I got stopped in my tracks several times, stuck on a boss for hours while I learned how to parry, manage my stamina, deal with perilous attacks, etc. If I had been given a massive power boost, it would’ve only delayed my being forced to learn. And then, later, a much tougher boss would’ve stopped me in my tracks anyway, and I would be so behind on learning that it might turn into an impossible wall. Suddenly your “easy mode” has a much rougher difficulty spike than normal.
And the games are full of things that aren’t made easier by just… scaling. Like managing deathblight, areas like Lake of Rot, stuff like the awkward parkour and areas where you have to play around not falling off. That stuff would have to be reworked to accommodate a player who hasn’t learned proper positioning, or blocks, or just… the general tools of mastering the gameplay.
Slapping a basic scale on the game is a poorly thought out approach that would do more harm than good. To do “easy” right, you’d want a proper balanced game, with reworked timings and boss movesets, and frankly, I don’t think it’s worth the effort and extra development time and cost.
It has literally 0 impact on your experience and would allow others to enjoy the game as much as you do.
Two things here.
A) Adding an easy mode actually would make the game worse for me. When I’m stuck on a hard boss, grinding attempts for hours, that isn’t immediately fun. It builds to a worthwhile payoff, which is why I love these games. But when you’re in it, an easy mode makes you feel like an idiot, wasting your own time suffering when you could walk right past at any moment. Except that lowering the difficulty to bypass something feels terrible, and also, puts you in the position I described above. It robs you of the satisfaction of conquering it and replaces that with guilt and feeling like you couldn’t do it.
B) Someone cruising through on Easy wouldn’t “enjoy the game as much as I do”. Engaging with, and mastering these mechanics is a huge part of what makes these games enjoyable. Skipping that side of the game, jumping past the difficulty robs you of the satisfaction of beating it.
Also, I think many people would enjoy the experience Souls offers, if they’re willing to give it a shot. One of my best friends used to play every game on easy, “why struggle when I could move on and see more of the game?”. He got into Dark Souls 1, and had a hell of a time with it. But because there wasn’t an easy mode, he persevered, and found he loved the stiff challenge and the payoff of beating a boss that really challenged him, and in finding mastery in the mechanics. He’s now a diehard, who’s done SL1 runs of many of the games, and usually starts new games on Hard these days. In a world where DS1 offered an easy mode, he never would’ve tried the designers intended experience, and Souls would’ve been just another decent action adventure.
Souls is offering a rare experience, with tons of alternatives that do offer an easier time. Why not let it shine and highlight what it does better than anyone else?
I don’t really think this is a good argument. Other games offer enjoyable experiences on normal difficulties and then offer a serious challenge by scaling up in higher difficulties. I remember original God of War (ps1 or ps2) was stupid easy on default difficulty and quite hard on the highest difficulty.
Your point 2) is just your biased view of the world, really. You think other people can’t enjoy something as much as you unless they do exactly as you. Different people like different things and it’s nice to have a choice. I don’t think gatekeeping game genres just because is a good thing.
Sure, lots of games offer high difficulties, but often, those aren’t nearly as good as a game that’s tailored from the ground up to make that experience good in the way Souls is. Scaling Health and Damage makes things hard, but frequently just turns enemies tanky and slow to kill, or forces you to play the game super cautiously. That’s fine, and an easy to add option for diehard players, but it doesn’t hold a candle to what a game designer can accomplish when creating a bespoke experience. That’s what Souls is, and what has made it such a smashing success.
Also, I don’t think it’s just a biased worldview here. What you’re suggesting is just subtracting mechanical depth and mastery from the experience. It’s not like an easy mode would add anything to the game, it would only take my favourite things about it, and move you out of the carefully designed, bespoke experience into a crude imitation of it.
Your agency is taken away here for good reason, so that you don’t make the experience worse for yourself. If From Soft didn’t believe in the experience they’ve crafted, they would’ve added a simple scaling difficulty like you’re suggesting years ago, but the artists who make these games have consistently decided to resist the pressure and make the game they want to make.
Exactly, my point is that the design of Sekiro is so fundamentally unforgiving that giving you a stats advantage wouldn’t make the final fights substantially easier, and letting you get there without properly learning from the content beforehand would be like trying to teach a child factorials before you’ve ensured they properly understand addition and multiplication.
In this very thread, there’s a comment from a person playing Sekiro with a mod to scale the game down substantially who’s still finding the game prohibitively difficult. That problem is only going to get worse as they get further, and there’s good reason the devs haven’t implemented a naive difficulty scaling like this.
Exactly, my point is that the design of Sekiro is so fundamentally unforgiving that giving you a stats advantage wouldn’t make the final fights substantially easier
I don’t agree with this. Fundamentally being able to tank more hits, being able to make more mistakes would make it easier.
letting you get there without properly learning from the content beforehand would be like trying to teach a child factorials before you’ve ensured they properly understand addition and multiplication.
You’re misunderstanding, someone can know how to do it entirely, that doesn’t mean they can input reliably enough to not make mistakes.
In this very thread, there’s a comment from a person playing Sekiro with a mod to scale the game down substantially who’s still finding the game prohibitively difficult.
That’s not what their comment said. They said they’re still finding it difficult, and imply it would be prohibitive if it weren’t for the mod. So yea the stat scaling is working for them.
In addition to the other comment, you can easily choose to make the game easy. The developers just ask that you pay attention. You can go explore and increase your level and improve your equipment to trivialize almost everything. If you choose the right gear, most bosses are very easy. You just want the victory handed to you, which is fine but that’s not the game they made. It’s totally OK to not like the game, but don’t pretend that’s the same thing as accessibility. You’re perfectly capable of completing the games. You just don’t want to. That’s cool. Go play any modern AAA that coddles you.
I recently noticed the accessibility settings in Brotato, which are a great example of this. In addition to the normal difficulty setting, in accessibility they give you access to sliders for enemy health/damage/speed and some toggles for other visual and difficulty features.
The only option I use is being able to restart a wave after a death rather than losing the whole run, and it’s kept me occasionally playing the game and enjoying what the devs have created.
It’s one of the reasons I got my grandparents to transition from consoles to PC. I knew how to fiddle with PC games to make things easier on them.
Still, oftentimes I would end up sending an email of thanks to a dev of some sort, usually along the lines of “I know this isn’t your target audience, but thank you so much for putting in native controller support/UI scaling/story mode/etc in, being able to get this working for my grandparents is a big joy in their lives.”
My grandparents were the ones who taught me how to play games! It skipped a generation - my mother was never a gamer, but she remembers them always having the latest consoles when she was growing up in the 70s and 80s. I grew up on my grandparents’ laps, watching them pass the PS1 controller back and forth on a dozen different genres. Shooters and horror for my grandfather, puzzles and platformers for my grandmother, and RPGs for both.
My grandparents were poor, so they were always trading in their games down at Gamestop, and then kicking themselves when they had a hankering for it again. And god, having an original copy of Final Fantasy Tactics too scratched to play, and then finding out the only place you could get it in the mid-2000s was on Ebay for 100$? When I learned how emulators and less than legal rom acquisition worked, they were delighted to suddenly have every game they ever traded away back in their hands.
But another problem was that they just couldn’t keep up with modern console gaming. The 360 was the last console they got, and most games were just… not friendly enough for them, especially since their reflexes were in decline (not that grandpa’s were ever great, as he himself would have been first to admit; he was a perpetual cheater with DOOM and Duke Nukem). Being able to transfer them over to PC gaming entirely, and difficulty adjustments as an increasingly standard feature of RPGs in the early 2010s, went a long way towards letting them play modern games again.
My grandfather passed away earlier this year. It’s been weird without him on call every weekend. Miss him terribly.
That’s really awesome. I’m very sorry your grandfather is gone, but at least you have all of those great memories! My dad was a film historian, so I think I feel the same way about classic movies like it sounds like you do about games and how they’re so much a part of not just me, but my family history. Similarly, there are so many times where I see a movie I hadn’t seen before but he would have or just learned a fact about a movie he wouldn’t have known and would have loved to have heard that I think about how great it would be to talk to him about it and miss him. He’s been gone since 2016 but I still think about him a lot. The hurt gets less but it never goes away.
Yep, I’ve been trying my best to also say thank you to devs that go out of their way when they don’t have to. (And also to musicians since I mainly listen to metal and 99.9% of those guys don’t get the recognition they deserve)
I agree. It’s a good think FromSoft doesn’t make difficult games. They make challenging games. Their games can be trivialize by meeting it on its own terms. If you pay attention to what things are weak to, it’s often pretty easy. Also, you always have the option to level up and improve your situation. Outside of secondary content, everything is easy, but it wants to challenge you to see if you’re paying attention. The issue is this is abnormal for modern games, so it’s seen by some as being hard. Modern gamers expect to have their hands held, which I don’t think developers should always oblige if it weakens the intended experience.
I see where you’re coming from, but when a game’s message is that meaning and purpose is born through hard work and struggling against impossible odds then that message is kinda undercut by a button that turns the struggle off, even if it’s there for a good reason.
I would say that the number of games where that message is core and is reliably reinforced through the gameplay is small.
Getting Over It, for example, would not need an ‘easy mode’, but the vast majority of games should be accessible to as wide an audience as possible - not by compromising the devs’ vision, but by simply allowing players the tools to handle the game at their own pace.
Granted, but I’d argue that dark souls and Elden ring, the typical subjects of this debate, are exactly that. There’s no way to add an easy mode without compromising the dev’s vision. And based on fromsoft’s reticence to add an easy mode, I think they agree.
There’s no way to add an easy mode without compromising the dev’s vision.
It would be as easy as putting a slider to reduce damage taken/increase damage inflicted.
If people want to go experience they can play the og game.
Take Celeste for example. Celeste is a game meant to be hard, beating Celeste is supposed to be a trial for the player, it’s their mountain to conquer.
And yet, Celeste gives so many accessibility options you can trivialize the game. The people that need it get to play the game and the people that don’t need it, play the game as intended.
That’s not to say that Dark Souls should have an easy mode. Just saying that it could, easily, have one. They don’t because they’d rather maintain the image of being a hardcore™ game than help people with less time/skill/capabilities play the game.
All difficult games should have an easy mode for accessibility.
Signed, a Dark Souls enjoyer.
For mechanically difficult games, definitely agree. Celeste is an example I usually bring up - it’s a platformer that can get pretty tough at times, especially in the after-story optional levels. But it also has one of the most flexible and useful accessibility modes I’ve ever seen. It allows you to adjust basically every aspect of the game a player might struggle with (game speed, additional jumps, timed mechanics, you name it). And the game itself is very good as well.
It also has a different sort of difficulty. It’s all in bite size chunks, and you can try again immediately. It never feels punishing in the way Souls games do.
Honestly… I disagree. What is accessibility? Every souls game has been beaten with dance pads, rock band drum kits and guitars. They’re also frequently beaten by people with serious disabilities using specialized controllers. Input speed is not an issue here, Souls has always been about carefully choosing your moves to manage the end lag and stamina cost of your actions. It’s about making the right move, not about moving quickly or pressing a lot of buttons at once.
IMHO, accessibility is frequently cited as an excuse for lower difficulties here, when in reality the difficulty isn’t a serious part of the barrier for disabled players. It could use better accessibility options, like configurable colourblind modes, audio indicators, more configurable text size, some kind of clear colour indicators on attacks for low vision, but difficulty? No.
There are also lots of good reasons not to add explicit difficulty options, which is y’know, why From Soft haven’t done it yet.
Accessibility isn’t just a case of ‘accessible to the handicapped’, man.
That’s a fair argument then, but… this is literally what accessibility means, whether or not you can “access” the thing.
If someone isn’t willing to invest the time or frustration into Souls, then fair enough, but that’s a matter of priorities/convenience, not a matter of accessibility.
Also, frankly, the difficulty of Souls for regular people is insanely overblown. Stuff like “Prepare to Die” is just a marketing gimmick, and the games have become substantially easier and more flexible over time. Like in Elden Ring, where you can leave bosses for later, and can frequently just bypass them entirely, experiment with an insane variety of builds, use effective ways to grind ridiculous amounts of souls, and just generally become ridiculously powerful. They’ve done essentially everything but creating an explicit “easy mode” to make the game playable for as many people as possible. If you want an easy mode, basically every souls game has builds or guides that function as that easy mode.
Difficulty counts as an access barrier. You always have to consider that there are people who, for whatever reason, have a skill capacity that is lower than required for the game in question. And for those people the game will be inaccessible.
Time is also an accessibility factor. If a person with a disability or lower skill has to grind and extend the playtime for 3-4x what a normal player would have, that’s not inaccessible but it’s less accessible comparatively. Especially if that kills the fun.
That being said obviously these things can be tweaked within reason and the problem can’t be solved for every player unfortunately. And they don’t need to be. Some games can just be too hard for some players.
The ultimate point for me just seems to be that the community needs to be listened to. You shouldn’t ever be in the positions as a dev where you are telling disabled or low skill gamers to get good or no dice. If a large portion of people are saying “I’d love to enjoy the art you’ve made, but I can’t. My disability/inability is stopping me” then I’d change my approach.
I think there is a balance that can be struck, grinding is one of the balances and you’re right there are ways to make those games easier that way. But the other people are also right, the games need to be hard sometimes. I just want people to stop being dismissive of people who want to enjoy the same entertainment and art but can’t just because of difficulty.
Apologies in advance for the essay lol, Souls is one of my favourite franchises, and I’ve spent a lot of time thinking and talking about these games.
I don’t think Souls requires any amount of skill beyond just… basic understanding of how to control a 3D character. They even tutorialize that, actually. Everyone starts somewhere, I personally got thrashed immediately after the tutorial in Dark Souls 1, and it took me hours to beat the first proper boss, with many deaths to regular enemies. Like any good video game, Souls teaches you the skills you need progressively, and gets gradually harder and asks more of the player over time. It’s not like just starting Guitar Hero on the highest difficulty, the game is balanced for anyone.
I don’t actually think these games require an excessive time investment. Howlongtobeat puts Dark Souls Remastered’s Main Story at 30 hours. Even if you’re somehow spending 4x that time, that still only puts it at 120 hours, which isn’t unreasonable, lots of games have runtimes around that length.
I also take issue with the idea that you can consistently take 3-4x longer than most. In reality, you only get seriously walled a handful of times learning the game, and surpassing those tough challenges teaches you how to play. For example, in Sekiro, I got walled for hours on one of the games earliest minibosses, but once I got a solid enough grasp on the game to beat him, I wasn’t seriously walled like that again for several hours of gameplay. Getting stuck just means there are lessons you’re learning, and you tend to remember what you struggled hard to learn.
A key part of developing anything for millions of people is that you have to learn what feedback to take and how to implement it properly. From Soft absolutely has listened to their community. First of all, there’s a vocal community that doesn’t want difficulties, which is what this whole post is joking about. I’d argue From Soft have done a phenomenal job of listening to their audience, and catering to the niche of people that want a tough, unyielding experience is how they’ve slowly built themselves into the multi-GotY juggernaut they are now.
But second of all, they’ve put a ton of effort into introducing ways to make the game easier. In Sekiro, if you’re hard stuck on a boss, tough luck, that game is mostly linear, and has key story moments that leave you no alternatives but to “git gud”. In Elden Ring, you can go elsewhere to learn the game more against a different boss, level up, and come back. In most cases, you don’t even need to come back. You can also explore different builds, respec your character, try a different weapon or spell or summon, summon a friend in multiplayer, go find more equipment, anything.
And personally, I really preferred Sekiro, it’s my favourite game they’ve ever made. I got stuck for hours on every key boss, and that game absolutely wiped the floor with me. It has barely any buildcraft, you truly do just have to “git gud”. And the purity of that experience really speaks to me and what I want out of a game. There’s no “questioning if I’m doing it wrong”, I just need to get in there and learn the required skills head on.
Ultimately, I’m really just tired of being villainized (not that your comment is doing that, to be clear) for wanting some games to pursue a single well-crafted and balanced hard experience that challenges me to push myself, when basically everything else on the market is pursuing the widest audience possible, with aggressive hints telling you how to do puzzles before you can even think, and several difficulty options that make things incredibly easy, at the cost of the harder difficulties usually being poorly balanced and uneven. I’m not going around saying every Mario game needs to be a Kaizo, with no way to tone it down, but it feels like many are coming to my favourite games and telling me they’re bad for being what I love.
Especially when I feel like From Soft is hitting that balance you’re talking about, and giving the player lots of options, but some people will seemingly just never be satisfied until they can choose “Easy” from the start screen. I don’t feel like me or From Soft is being dismissive when there are an abundance of accommodations and options to make things easier, you just need to actually engage with the game to use them.
That’s obviously not true. Try playing an FPS with a mouse and keyboard vs controller and you’ll see understanding how to do something theoretically is less than half the battle. Say someone is missing arms so plays with their feet, it is far far more difficult to get a higher level of precision, and some people just won’t be able to no matter the amount of practice. People have a peak of reaction time no matter the amount of practice, and its different for different people. People have a peak of ability to move with precision no matter the amount of practice(see dyspraxia). People have shakes that cannot be controlled no matter the amount of practice.
Ignoring that that experience just isn’t fun for a lot of people, you’re using your own experience of your own ability.
… It doesn’t detract from your experience at all to add an optional mode for quick save or other similar features.
Accessibility is literally how this thread started. I also disagree that the game requires a high degree of precision. Dark Souls originally came out with only 8-directional rolling, which you could do on a D-Pad, Fight Stick, or any other accessible controller. There’s no FPS-style aiming or anything, and again, you can find challenge runs of people beating the game while wearing oven mitts and other such shenanigans. The series main difficulty is in making the right decisions with the committed attack animations, end lag, and stagger mechanics, not quick reactions or precise inputs, although I’ll absolutely grant that the combat has become faster over time. Not that you can’t conquer the game with good buildcraft anyway, check out an “all hit run” for ways to beat Elden Ring while literally not dodging any attacks.
Sure, but skills and muscle memory are skills and muscle memory. Unless you’re referring to learning disabilities, people improve at things with practice, and time spent practicing the combat will make you better at the combat.
I’ve also replied to that in this thread. But I’ll also add that something like a quick save is very different from adding a new scaled difficulty option, and Souls already implements a wealth of options to make the game easier. Adding another option in that same vein is a separate conversation from adding an Easy Mode.
P.S. I don’t mean to be snarky by linking my own comments. It’s understandable that you wouldn’t constantly be re-reading every comment I’ve made on this thread before replying, but I am getting a bit fatigued after debating this all day with Lemmy, and don’t feel a need to re-hash the same arguments here.
What? Yea? Sorry maybe you mixed me up with someone else I didn’t deny that.
Its not just a matter of precision in being able to input a control, its being able to reliably input a control quickly.
Again, someone being able to do something doesn’t mean everyone can.
Yea this I wouldn’t agree with, there definitely is a lot of quick inputs needed
Look into stuff like dysgraphia and dyspraxia, or even speech impediments. People can practice things repeatedly, but still because of muscle or neurological issues be unable to reliably perform certain actions. Obviously practice can improve, or it might not, or there might be a ceiling much lower than people without those issues- as well as improving much more slowly. What you seem to be misunderstanding is people aren’t saying its impossible for anyone to play the game with differing levels of ability, they are saying it might not be viable- and they won’t necessarily follow the same path of improvement that you did. This could make it way more frustrating or even impossible to finish the game.
I’m advocating either or/both, an easy mode would be an improvement. But I’ll add more in the comment there.
Fair, at least from my perspective it seems like you’re kinda talking past people though of course I would think that.
Accessibility also includes time constraints. You say yourself, it took you hours to get to a point where you could get through the game, let alone the hours it takes to just pass through the game with that aside. I personally missed out on a lot of Fromsoft’s stuff because, at the time, I was working 70+ hours a week, with 3 hours of commuting. I would have loved to spent some of the little free time I had putzing around in those games, an experience their art. However, I never had the time to spend double digit hours honing skills, just to get through the game in a reasonable time frame. Sure, now that I don’t work like that, I prefer games with high difficulty, doesn’t mean that when I play those games, now that I have time, I still don’t wish I had that access back then. If you can access a broader audience by offering a selected difficulty, why not? Many games with the highest skill ceilings have, traditionally, had difficulty modes, no on talks shit on all the boomer shooters for having easy/hard/harder/nightmare modes.
Mmm, I feel like under heavy time constraints like that, there are worse barriers than difficulty to a game’s experience. For example, it’s hard to appreciate a narrative and big reveals when you’re spreading your play out so much that it’s hard to remember who characters are. It’s also hard to enjoy exploring a large space, and feeling like you’ve covered it well.
Elden Ring, for example, is a massive game. I soared through Elden Ring, as I played the whole franchise (besides what’s locked to PlayStation) first, and happened to stumble into an extremely powerful build. The game still took me 140 hours, including the DLC.
I also still don’t think it’s an accessibility constraint. I’d totally understand why you don’t want to commit to a 150hr experience when you’re playing less than 3hrs a week, you’d be stuck on it for a whole year. But learning over time in little pieces is totally viable. Stuff like muscle memory and skill sticks with you, I could put down Souls for the next few years and when I came back I’d still be much better at it than when I first sat down.
Also, I actually find small time slots one of the best ways to conquer a tough challenge. When I get hard stuck, like I did on the final boss of the ER DLC, I chose to play like, 20 minutes of attempts a night, and then go to bed and sleep on it. We know from academia that studying something right before you sleep helps, since your brain can lock that fresh experience into memory better. You’re also starting each attempt “fresh”, in that you aren’t already frustrated and annoyed by the boss. And this worked great, it took a boss that I couldn’t beat with a whole free evening, and I beat it after only a few days. It’s a technique I’ve used repeatedly.
All that to say, I don’t think difficulty is the best reason to not play a Souls game while working 70+ hour weeks. And I don’t think it’s exclusive to Souls, I’d also avoid story-heavy JRPGs, and massive open worlds in general. Not that you couldn’t sacrifice the time to play any of those things, but frankly, I’d recommend a game that’s better consumed in bits and pieces, such as GotY nominee Balatro, a competitive multiplayer game with constrained matches, or a roguelike experience such as Hades. And that’s not that odd, I also wouldn’t recommend reading an epic novel like Dune, or trying to binge Game of Thrones or something.
My honest take on your story, is that I’m really glad Souls didn’t have an easy mode for you at that time. As you say, you prefer games with high difficulty now. I would hate for you to have played a compromised version of what From Software carefully designed here, when the intended experience ultimately really worked for you. It’s the same reason I avoid trailers for games I know I want to play, that is, if you would’ve even came back to replay a game you’d already “beaten”.
In other comments, I’ve already talked about my friend who only played games on easy before playing Souls, which made him realize how much he enjoyed hard games and the rest of beating a tough challenge. He fell in love with the experience From Software set out to make. If DS1 had had an easy mode at that time, I’m not sure he would’ve ever learned that about himself, because he would’ve played it on easy. He might’ve enjoyed the art, and the visual design of the creatures, but it’s only because From Software had the confidence to assert their intended vision that it’s his favourite game and franchise ever made.
Your first point about spreading out the narrative in such a way… that is how most media worked until very recently. I grew up waiting upwards of months for the next installment, if those are large installments, years. Also, Elden ring came out after I stopped working those hours, I am mostly having this experience, in terms of Fromsoft games, with Demon’s Souls - Sekiro, but that doesn’t change the argument, just putting up my time frame.
I am more likely to not retain the patterns of attack, etc., when I have to break it up, in such a fashion, unlike the experience of seeing the new things, and partaking in the world, and its lore.
The reason I was unable to get through the souls games was that I had time to learn things like the attack patterns of the monsters, or time to experience the world and its lore in a way the memorization part was getting in the way of. When I learned something, and returned to it weeks later, I had to relearn a lot of the rote aspects of the game play. This blocks access to me experiencing the art, and lore, which is more important to me, in such games, than the mechanics of it. So, yes, I lost access.
Having now played the games, I do not wish it had this barrier back then, as I still would have preferred to experienced and easier version, so that I could participate in the larger zeitgeist, of the pop culture of the time, and then got to enjoy it how it is, now that I have time. Let me repeat that, I would have preferred to have had an easy mode, back when it was new, to experience my preferred part, when it was most culturally relevant. Now that I have played them, I STILL would have preferred that, even if I never got to experience it otherwise.
You are basically telling me how YOU would prefer to do something, and you are glad I had to conform to YOUR preferences. Meanwhile, having the option for and easier mode, would not have changed YOUR experience at all, unless YOU choose to. While my suggestion would not have affected your experience, it would have allowed me to have experienced the games when they was at their relevance peak. Meanwhile, what you ask for affects me in a negative way. To say that an option for an easy mode, on the screen, when you start, that you do not have to select, would damage your experience, is wild. That is very, very, weird. You are adamant the idea that someone could have a variant in preferences, that affect you in no way, would damage your experience because what? Because you had to see the option on the screen? Because people you deem lesser gamers would have played it? Is this some weird ideological axiom? Because people are simply doing something different than you? What is it that bothers you so much about other people having a different choice, you don’t need to make, or experience?
Ok, hang on. I replied to this initially while annoyed, and blew past some of the key points. But I do actually want to talk about the whole “participating in the zeitgeist” thing.
A large part of the reasons Dark Souls doesn’t have difficulties is to create that social element. Gonna stick with Elden Ring for my examples here, because I missed most of the online discussion around Sekiro. But from what I saw, the majority of the discussion online was about how hard certain bosses were, shared experiences like getting your ass kicked by Tree Sentinel, or Margit “putting your foolish ambitions to rest”. If Elden Ring really did have an easy mode, that was easy enough for someone to beat the game without “learning the attack patterns of the monsters”, and to keep up with the diehard playerbase while working 70+ hour work weeks, would they really have felt included in those conversations? Would they have been able to share the excitement at beating a boss that they struggled with for hours, without actually struggling for that time? There’s an intentional design decision here. To quote Miyazaki from when Sekiro released:
If all you really wanted was to just… experience the art and story, and see the cool enemy designs, you could always watch a youtube let’s play or something as well. The ultimate easy mode, with a defined length of how long it will take. But if you wanted to commiserate about tough challenges and the experience you went through, then you kinda need to actually have that experience.
I’ll also add, that stuff doesn’t go away. I was excited by the hype around Elden Ring too. It’s what pushed me to start Dark Souls 1, and then play 2, 3, Sekiro, and finally Elden Ring. I missed the initial hype around all of those games, but that cultural stuff is still there. I built up a youtube playlist while playing each game and once I finished them I would catch up on Illusory Wall, Zullie the Witch, Vaati, and challenge runs and Lockout Bingos from the likes of Lil’ Aggy or Ymfah. My friends were also excited to see me play the games. I may not have experienced the Anor Londo archers until years after they did, but it was still fun to talk to them about it, and they were excited to reminisce and replay the game alongside me.
I eventually did get to participate in the fun that was Shadow of the Erdtree releasing soon after I beat Elden Ring. And that was great, and special. It was fun to see that final boss get nerfed soon after I beat it, for example. I do feel sorry that you missed the moment of Sekiro releasing. But ultimately I don’t think your anecdotal experience is more important than say, my friend who always picked easy and didn’t realize how much he loved a tough challenge. Or any of the “Dark Souls saved my life” people, who might’ve picked easy if it was offered and not had that experience. Or the designers at From Software who worked hard to create something special and have the right to not offer a way to half-ass it and “fragment the user base”.
Skill issue on FromSoft’s part, and I say that as someone who has been a fan of their games longer than most people in this thread - more than a decade before even Demon’s Souls. Their original talent was always in detailed, immersive world design. Their gameplay was unpolished and experimental, but that’s something I liked about them. They got a smash hit with Demon’s and Dark Souls and made a hard pivot towards iterating on that formula. They still embrace their roots as a studio focused on detailed world building, but they’re trying to move more towards action and encounter design to cater to Souls fans. Where once they were highly experimental, now they seem afraid to try anything different.
A better studio could find a way for players to share that struggle and triumph while still allowing players of different skill levels to enjoy everything the game has to offer. That studio would be Supergiant with Hades’ God Mode option, which slowly gives more damage resistance each time you die so the player still struggles and gets better until the handicap and their improving skill meet in the middle. In the context of Souls, this could be separate for each boss. Or another entirely different approach could be taken. The point is merely that there are ways for players of different skill levels to still share in the same struggles, FromSoft is just unwilling or incapable of finding them.
So as a longtime FromSoft fan, I think they’re the ones who need to git gud.
So, I was there, missing it. Though this doesn’t apply to elden ring, as that came out after I changed my work life.
The conversation was not simply about the difficulty and moves. Like, most of the conversations happening around me were about the lore, what people thought was happening considering X, Y, and Z, etc. The time the difficulty, mechanics, etc., took the spotlight, was over in a week or so, and mostly relegated to people asking for help with one thing, or another, new found tactics, and speed run methods. So it, fairly rapidly, evened out. Even if you look at YT videos about those games, at least a similar amount are focused on the lore, as the mechanics, though those were initial chatter. They basically only came up in a a month or so as a broad statements of difficulty, or when some new trick was found, until it circulated. There was easily enough to have be an active part of those conversations. Much more than “Oh, you know my work schedule, don’t have time”.
That stuff doesn’t go away online. However, in person, with the exception of hardcore fans, it definitely does fade away. Occasionally something will be brought up in a bout of nostalgia, or in comparison to something contemporary, but it does fade away.
You truly do not understand the ways in which I, and many others. enjoy things, if you think this is the same. This statement leads me to believe that many perspectives you do not hold are completely alien to you.
Your anecdotal experience is not worth more than mine either, and my suggestions do not force themselves upon you.
Well alright, I’m choosing to disregard the fact that this is 90% insults and calling me a weirdo freak. Thanks for that, btw, I’ve put a lot of effort into expressing myself clearly across a lot of different comments here.
In the latter half of this comment, I articulated why I feel an easy mode actually does make playing the game worse, even if you don’t select it. I also articulated why a simple scaling difficulty wouldn’t really work.
And in the latter half of this comment (start at “But I also think games are art”), I expressed why I think an Easy mode hasn’t been added, and wouldn’t be the same experience.
To add to that final point, the reason I don’t want others to play an easy mode isn’t because I’m a loser and beating Souls is the only way I know I’m a real man. I just think Souls is an amazing and unique offering, and it would be a real shame for someone to play the game on easy (which would “break the game itself” in Miyazaki’s words) and think that’s all there was.
I want more people to give it a try and experience it, and hopefully love it, not less. But just like it’s frustrating to watch a movie you love with someone who’s on their phone the whole time, it would be frustrating to see a ton of people play a kneecapped version of one of my favourite things and end up not “getting it”. And it would be more of a loss for them than me. It’s just the same Miyazaki quote over again, both me and him love what has been made here, and want more people to experience it, but not at the expense of compromising it. To paraphrase the end of his quote, would we even be talking about it if From Soft hadn’t had the confidence to stick to their intended vision?
90% calling you names? in the last 1/4 I brought up how it is weird to be bothered by the experience of others, when they don’t affect you, then pushed for a reasoning of it, by laying down an array of possibilities, and then asking what yours was. I used the word weird twice, and it was in relationship to the behavior, not the person. My guy, you are way too sensitive, like you imagined something isn’t there, if this is really how you viewed that comment.
There is more to scaling that just HP/Damage. It isn’t that great of a challenge to add in more time for response, and reduce pattern complexity so you don’t have memorize as much, or for as long. This is how many FPS games, Fighting games, and RTS games have done it for decades. No one bemoans Quake for having something other than nightmare, or Mortal Combat for having an easy option. Hell, in Sekiro, giving more time to respond for parries/blocks, and reducing the number needed, in order to execute the instant kill function, would have worked. There are many ways difficulty could be changed. Even if they did the dumb thing by reducing the HP of enemies, and increasing the damage you do, if normal is just as it was intended, how did it change your personal experience, since you wouldn’t play the game?
It is possible to disagree, and have a discourse about it, with the creators. You don’t have to accept artist/authorial intent as if it was the law of reality governing their product. I agree with him that people who enjoy those challenges will get more from a game than they would otherwise. However I think it is weird, maybe even self-centered in nature, to assume that everyone would get that increase in satisfaction, for the same reasons, as he does. He is free to say he doesn’t want to do this, and people who play his games are free to disagree with him on the subject.
It appears we fundamentally disagree here.
I wanna play a game with story interspersed with fun action combat… not keen on dying a million tonnes until I learn the timings for each enemy in order to be able to defeat them and get the next bit of story. Soulslike games aren’t accessible to me.
I mean, Souls is accessible to you, it sounds like it just isn’t for you. There are tons of games that I wish were made in a way that I’d enjoy more, features I’ve disliked, etc. But in almost all of those cases, someone loves those features the way they are, as is.
Like, for example, I don’t love JRPG combat. I would love to play and enjoy Persona 5, but eh, I’m just not interested in investing in those systems to play that game. But that game is beloved, as is. I would never go petition Atlus to make Persona 6 into a Soulslike so that I “could” play it.
And that’s great, there are a ridiculous amount of great games coming out every year, far more than I or basically anyone but full-time streamers have the time to play. So just… go play what you like?
Trying to make games that are “for” everyone is how we end up with soulless bland titles like Ubisoft keeps pumping out. Good games have to take risks, and make interesting decisions that alienate some and engage others.
Exactly!!!
Not every game is made for you!
Don’t like the gameplay or the challenge, you are welcome to switch to something else.
Why do people expect everything to cater to their preferences?
I enjoy souls games and I’m okay with their difficulty but I honestly don’t get how the possibility of an easy mode upsets so many people. It doesn’t require much development time, if any, to scale down enemies.
This isn’t like implementing something that doesn’t exist or that fundamentally changes the gameplay. Scaling already exists.
It has literally 0 impact on your experience and would allow others to enjoy the game as much as you do.
Scaling sounds like it’d work, but in actuality, these games are designed with tough mechanics that you really have to learn before they make things more difficult. Take Sekiro for example. The endgame bosses will absolutely bully you. I’m not sure even 10x damage and health would help you get past the final boss if you don’t know what you’re doing.
While playing through the game, I got stopped in my tracks several times, stuck on a boss for hours while I learned how to parry, manage my stamina, deal with perilous attacks, etc. If I had been given a massive power boost, it would’ve only delayed my being forced to learn. And then, later, a much tougher boss would’ve stopped me in my tracks anyway, and I would be so behind on learning that it might turn into an impossible wall. Suddenly your “easy mode” has a much rougher difficulty spike than normal.
And the games are full of things that aren’t made easier by just… scaling. Like managing deathblight, areas like Lake of Rot, stuff like the awkward parkour and areas where you have to play around not falling off. That stuff would have to be reworked to accommodate a player who hasn’t learned proper positioning, or blocks, or just… the general tools of mastering the gameplay.
Slapping a basic scale on the game is a poorly thought out approach that would do more harm than good. To do “easy” right, you’d want a proper balanced game, with reworked timings and boss movesets, and frankly, I don’t think it’s worth the effort and extra development time and cost.
Two things here.
A) Adding an easy mode actually would make the game worse for me. When I’m stuck on a hard boss, grinding attempts for hours, that isn’t immediately fun. It builds to a worthwhile payoff, which is why I love these games. But when you’re in it, an easy mode makes you feel like an idiot, wasting your own time suffering when you could walk right past at any moment. Except that lowering the difficulty to bypass something feels terrible, and also, puts you in the position I described above. It robs you of the satisfaction of conquering it and replaces that with guilt and feeling like you couldn’t do it.
B) Someone cruising through on Easy wouldn’t “enjoy the game as much as I do”. Engaging with, and mastering these mechanics is a huge part of what makes these games enjoyable. Skipping that side of the game, jumping past the difficulty robs you of the satisfaction of beating it.
Also, I think many people would enjoy the experience Souls offers, if they’re willing to give it a shot. One of my best friends used to play every game on easy, “why struggle when I could move on and see more of the game?”. He got into Dark Souls 1, and had a hell of a time with it. But because there wasn’t an easy mode, he persevered, and found he loved the stiff challenge and the payoff of beating a boss that really challenged him, and in finding mastery in the mechanics. He’s now a diehard, who’s done SL1 runs of many of the games, and usually starts new games on Hard these days. In a world where DS1 offered an easy mode, he never would’ve tried the designers intended experience, and Souls would’ve been just another decent action adventure.
Souls is offering a rare experience, with tons of alternatives that do offer an easier time. Why not let it shine and highlight what it does better than anyone else?
I don’t really think this is a good argument. Other games offer enjoyable experiences on normal difficulties and then offer a serious challenge by scaling up in higher difficulties. I remember original God of War (ps1 or ps2) was stupid easy on default difficulty and quite hard on the highest difficulty.
Your point 2) is just your biased view of the world, really. You think other people can’t enjoy something as much as you unless they do exactly as you. Different people like different things and it’s nice to have a choice. I don’t think gatekeeping game genres just because is a good thing.
Sure, lots of games offer high difficulties, but often, those aren’t nearly as good as a game that’s tailored from the ground up to make that experience good in the way Souls is. Scaling Health and Damage makes things hard, but frequently just turns enemies tanky and slow to kill, or forces you to play the game super cautiously. That’s fine, and an easy to add option for diehard players, but it doesn’t hold a candle to what a game designer can accomplish when creating a bespoke experience. That’s what Souls is, and what has made it such a smashing success.
Also, I don’t think it’s just a biased worldview here. What you’re suggesting is just subtracting mechanical depth and mastery from the experience. It’s not like an easy mode would add anything to the game, it would only take my favourite things about it, and move you out of the carefully designed, bespoke experience into a crude imitation of it.
Your agency is taken away here for good reason, so that you don’t make the experience worse for yourself. If From Soft didn’t believe in the experience they’ve crafted, they would’ve added a simple scaling difficulty like you’re suggesting years ago, but the artists who make these games have consistently decided to resist the pressure and make the game they want to make.
No one’s talking about not knowing what they’re doing, they’re talking about physical difficulty performing it unforgivingly
Exactly, my point is that the design of Sekiro is so fundamentally unforgiving that giving you a stats advantage wouldn’t make the final fights substantially easier, and letting you get there without properly learning from the content beforehand would be like trying to teach a child factorials before you’ve ensured they properly understand addition and multiplication.
In this very thread, there’s a comment from a person playing Sekiro with a mod to scale the game down substantially who’s still finding the game prohibitively difficult. That problem is only going to get worse as they get further, and there’s good reason the devs haven’t implemented a naive difficulty scaling like this.
I don’t agree with this. Fundamentally being able to tank more hits, being able to make more mistakes would make it easier.
You’re misunderstanding, someone can know how to do it entirely, that doesn’t mean they can input reliably enough to not make mistakes.
That’s not what their comment said. They said they’re still finding it difficult, and imply it would be prohibitive if it weren’t for the mod. So yea the stat scaling is working for them.
In addition to the other comment, you can easily choose to make the game easy. The developers just ask that you pay attention. You can go explore and increase your level and improve your equipment to trivialize almost everything. If you choose the right gear, most bosses are very easy. You just want the victory handed to you, which is fine but that’s not the game they made. It’s totally OK to not like the game, but don’t pretend that’s the same thing as accessibility. You’re perfectly capable of completing the games. You just don’t want to. That’s cool. Go play any modern AAA that coddles you.
I recently noticed the accessibility settings in Brotato, which are a great example of this. In addition to the normal difficulty setting, in accessibility they give you access to sliders for enemy health/damage/speed and some toggles for other visual and difficulty features.
The only option I use is being able to restart a wave after a death rather than losing the whole run, and it’s kept me occasionally playing the game and enjoying what the devs have created.
Agreed. Games are meant to be enjoyed or as a measure of skill, but they don’t have to be both.
Sucks for console users. On PC there are trainers.
It’s one of the reasons I got my grandparents to transition from consoles to PC. I knew how to fiddle with PC games to make things easier on them.
Still, oftentimes I would end up sending an email of thanks to a dev of some sort, usually along the lines of “I know this isn’t your target audience, but thank you so much for putting in native controller support/UI scaling/story mode/etc in, being able to get this working for my grandparents is a big joy in their lives.”
The most unexpected sentence I expect I’ll run into today.
My grandparents were the ones who taught me how to play games! It skipped a generation - my mother was never a gamer, but she remembers them always having the latest consoles when she was growing up in the 70s and 80s. I grew up on my grandparents’ laps, watching them pass the PS1 controller back and forth on a dozen different genres. Shooters and horror for my grandfather, puzzles and platformers for my grandmother, and RPGs for both.
My grandparents were poor, so they were always trading in their games down at Gamestop, and then kicking themselves when they had a hankering for it again. And god, having an original copy of Final Fantasy Tactics too scratched to play, and then finding out the only place you could get it in the mid-2000s was on Ebay for 100$? When I learned how emulators and less than legal rom acquisition worked, they were delighted to suddenly have every game they ever traded away back in their hands.
But another problem was that they just couldn’t keep up with modern console gaming. The 360 was the last console they got, and most games were just… not friendly enough for them, especially since their reflexes were in decline (not that grandpa’s were ever great, as he himself would have been first to admit; he was a perpetual cheater with DOOM and Duke Nukem). Being able to transfer them over to PC gaming entirely, and difficulty adjustments as an increasingly standard feature of RPGs in the early 2010s, went a long way towards letting them play modern games again.
My grandfather passed away earlier this year. It’s been weird without him on call every weekend. Miss him terribly.
That’s really awesome. I’m very sorry your grandfather is gone, but at least you have all of those great memories! My dad was a film historian, so I think I feel the same way about classic movies like it sounds like you do about games and how they’re so much a part of not just me, but my family history. Similarly, there are so many times where I see a movie I hadn’t seen before but he would have or just learned a fact about a movie he wouldn’t have known and would have loved to have heard that I think about how great it would be to talk to him about it and miss him. He’s been gone since 2016 but I still think about him a lot. The hurt gets less but it never goes away.
Yep, I’ve been trying my best to also say thank you to devs that go out of their way when they don’t have to. (And also to musicians since I mainly listen to metal and 99.9% of those guys don’t get the recognition they deserve)
I agree. It’s a good think FromSoft doesn’t make difficult games. They make challenging games. Their games can be trivialize by meeting it on its own terms. If you pay attention to what things are weak to, it’s often pretty easy. Also, you always have the option to level up and improve your situation. Outside of secondary content, everything is easy, but it wants to challenge you to see if you’re paying attention. The issue is this is abnormal for modern games, so it’s seen by some as being hard. Modern gamers expect to have their hands held, which I don’t think developers should always oblige if it weakens the intended experience.
I see where you’re coming from, but when a game’s message is that meaning and purpose is born through hard work and struggling against impossible odds then that message is kinda undercut by a button that turns the struggle off, even if it’s there for a good reason.
I would say that the number of games where that message is core and is reliably reinforced through the gameplay is small.
Getting Over It, for example, would not need an ‘easy mode’, but the vast majority of games should be accessible to as wide an audience as possible - not by compromising the devs’ vision, but by simply allowing players the tools to handle the game at their own pace.
Granted, but I’d argue that dark souls and Elden ring, the typical subjects of this debate, are exactly that. There’s no way to add an easy mode without compromising the dev’s vision. And based on fromsoft’s reticence to add an easy mode, I think they agree.
It would be as easy as putting a slider to reduce damage taken/increase damage inflicted.
If people want to go experience they can play the og game.
Take Celeste for example. Celeste is a game meant to be hard, beating Celeste is supposed to be a trial for the player, it’s their mountain to conquer.
And yet, Celeste gives so many accessibility options you can trivialize the game. The people that need it get to play the game and the people that don’t need it, play the game as intended.
That’s not to say that Dark Souls should have an easy mode. Just saying that it could, easily, have one. They don’t because they’d rather maintain the image of being a hardcore™ game than help people with less time/skill/capabilities play the game.