I remember way back when I had a girlfriend (13F). I was 14. She didn’t snore that loud when I slept over, but she would definitely snore. It just came to mind and made me wonder if it’s normal to do so at 13.
When I was a teenager all my mates complained that I snored really loud. Then I got diagnosed with severe sleep apneoa in my late 20’s
why specify MtF in this context, the girlfriend is just F, that doesn’t really require qualifying does it?
Good idea! No idea why
Why not? They felt comfortable sharing something, there’s no reason they shouldn’t, why do you have a problem with it?
because qualifying someone’s gender like that can be dehumanizing …
edit: not to mention the problems with outing someone unnecessarily
most trans folks live as their gender, and the incorrect assignment that happened at their birth is not generally something they want disclosed in most contexts
Is it normal for young people to have sleep apnea, asthma, or allergies? I shouldn’t have to sketch this out for you to draw a conclusion. People of all ages have various conditions.
This is like that doctor telling John Green “sneezing isn’t normal. I never sneeze.” Snoring is normal and probably good for you. When most people are dreaming deeply, they snore. It’s just how we’re built.
People of all ages snore.
Even my cat snores.
My cat snores at us when we’re in bed, just because we’re in bed. He’s not even asleep. The bastard. I don’t snore that loud.
Thanks !
Intensity matters.
Light snoring is no biggie and 100% normal.
When it’s moderate or heavy then it’s worth getting checked. If breathing pauses, esp. Followed by a fit, then it’s disorder (apnea). You’ll still need to do testing and work with a doctor.
There are also several reflux conditions that can result from nicotine/alcohol use which all together may worsen snoring, cause daytime mucus buildup (hacking), and/or cause apnea.
If breathing pauses, esp. Followed by a fit, then it’s disorder (apnea).
Only if it happens frequently enough. Apparently, having this happen a few times a night is normal for healthy people.
That’s insane! But good add.
normal but can be a sign of sleep issues
Yes. Totally normal to have regular mild snoring at any age.
I think it’s normal.
I snore but I have sleep apnea, maybe get that checked if you also have poor sleep
No, snoring is not normal. It’s a sign of ectopic fat in the airway.
Snoring is common today because most people have less then ideal metabolic health. It is not normal for our species. From a evolutionary perspective it’s not a great idea to advertise to predators that you are asleep
Most ectopic fat is due to a high carbohydrate diet driving persistently elevated insulin levels driving excess anabolism driving ectopic fat (airway, liver, visceral)
The good news is ectopic fat is the easiest fat to lose when you change your metabolism
This is the third time now. I keep seeing you blame carbs as the main culprit for various health issues people have. It would be nice to see some primary sources to back it up.
Great prompt, I haven’t complied a list of ketogenic reading yet, I’ve rectified that now.
https://hackertalks.com/post/14461366
All the primary resources I’ve read on keto
That’s a nice list. Saving it for later reading.
But for the purposes of the discussion in this thread, I’m looking for sources that point towards ectopic fat being the main culprit of snoring to tie in with what looks like evidence towards low carb diets being a (not the) solution to getting rid of ectopic fat. If that’s in the list you provided, I’d appreciate if you can point it out. It’s not really reasonable to expect someone to dig through all of that.
No such resource exists just on snoring. It’s not a major health concern (sleep apnea is) so not much gets published specifically on subclinical snoring. I’m synthesizing from my collected knowledge and commenting casually here.
- Ectopic Fat is fat someplace it shouldn’t be
- The human body does not want fat in places it shouldn’t be (intermuscular, interorgan, visceral, airway)
- visceral fat is quicky resolved on a ketogenic intervention (not the only way to resolve, but it is demonstrated in all the literature on NAFLD)
- Anecdotal repots of snoring and sleep apnea resolving on keto
Ketogenic -1.3.9.1.4 How hyperinsulinaemia produces the visceral obesity that is the key to the pathology of the insulin resistance syndrome - This is probably the most relevant thing to read with respect to ectopic fat
As far as the mechanism of action of why carbohydrates are driving ectopic fat please read - The Carbohydrate-Insulin Model of Obesity - Beyond “Calories In, Calories Out” - 2018
Your not asking people to justify with references the “snoring is normal and healthy” vibe that is upvoted here. I think that speaks to the poor metabolic health we have come to accept in society
It’s not really reasonable to expect someone to dig through all of that.
This is the third time now. I keep seeing you blame carbs as the main culprit for various health issues people have. It would be nice to see some primary sources to back it up.
To be fair, your statement was very general “various health issues” and “primary sources”. The only possible response to satisfy that would be all the primary sources on all issues.
To be clear, I don’t object to the message of the ketogenic diet being an effective solution for many problems, but I do object to presenting it as the one and only (or ideal) solution to everything. It’s not clear if you intended for that. A literal reading of your top level comment conveys nothing of this sort, but if I give it a reading while pretending not to be autistic, I pick up on the implication that anyone who snores is fat. I think the responses you’ve gotten confirm this interpretation.
It’s basically the difference between “Being fat causes snoring. Here’s how to reduce body fat.” vs “Being fat can cause snoring. If that happens to apply to you, here is what I believe to be the best solution.”
I’m also not a fan of prescribing keto as a first resort because it’s a huge lifestyle change for most people. The point of being healthy is to allow you to enjoy life to its fullest. If the lifestyle that the diet requires doesn’t allow for that, then it’s pointless.
As far as the mechanism of action of why carbohydrates are driving ectopic fat please read - The Carbohydrate-Insulin Model of Obesity - Beyond “Calories In, Calories Out” - 2018
The “access through your institution” button appears to be broken right now. Based on the abstract, it looks to be more about glycemic load than ketosis. So their findings likely also apply to the ketogenic diet, but I see no reason to believe it to be necessary.
Your not asking people to justify with references the “snoring is normal and healthy” vibe that is upvoted here. I think that speaks to the poor metabolic health we have come to accept in society
I don’t think anyone is normalizing poor metabolic health. I’m certainly not. What I do question is the attribution of poor metabolic health to carbs alone, and all carbs on top of that. From what I know, just about everything in the body interacts with everything else, so while that means changing one thing (like reducing carb intake) can fix a lot of things, it is highly unlikely that the blame can be placed on any single thing. There are many ways to improve your health.
It also happens to fit my mental model of how things work, and I really don’t have the time or energy to read something that just reconfirms my beliefs. I’m also not that interested in snoring, but I am interested in reading about nutrition. You also said it yourself: “[snoring is] not a major health concern (sleep apnea is)”
To be fair, your statement was very general
Fair. I did allude to all the other times you’ve brought this up. I should’ve been clearer.
I do object to presenting it as the one and only (or ideal) solution to everything.
It’s not the only path to metabolic health, there are many valid ways to be healthy. I would say it is the ideal path, but that is just my opinion.
I give it a reading while pretending not to be autistic, I pick up on the implication that anyone who snores is fat. I think the responses you’ve gotten confirm this interpretation.
Not fat! Metabolically unwell. You surely have heard of skinny fat people - thin on the outside but with visceral fat. So non-obese people can have fat in unhealthy places.
“Being fat causes snoring. Here’s how to reduce body fat.” vs “Being fat can cause snoring. If that happens to apply to you, here is what I believe to be the best solution.”
Snoring is a early sign of poor metabolic health, the easiest way to fix that is… (I would say keto as the most effective intervention, but there are many ways to resolve it).
The “access through your institution” button appears to be broken right now.
I included a link to the paper directly (rather then just the official doi link) - you can just click here to read it directly - Full Paper here
Based on the abstract, it looks to be more about glycemic load than ketosis. So their findings likely also apply to the ketogenic diet, but I see no reason to believe it to be necessary.
Obesity is driven by carbohydrates. Fat burning, requires the absence of carbohydrates in the blood. It is not necessary to produce enough ketones to be detectable in the blood to be in a fat based metabolism, but it is still a ketogenic state. People using CICO for weight control are still entering a ketogenic state between meals, when they sleep, etc. A ketogenic diet just prolongs this ketogenic state to a greater percentage of the day. Any time carbohydrates are consumed, blood glucose rises, raising insulin - when insulin is elevated the body will not mobilize fat from adipose tissue, i.e. it pauses fat burning. So someone eating the standard 3 meals and 3 snacks with carbs is pausing their fat burning 6 times per day (for 2-4 hours per eating session depending on their inherit insulin resistance) - Which is almost the entire day.
What I do question is the attribution of poor metabolic health to carbs alone, and all carbs on top of that. From what I know, just about everything in the body interacts with everything else, so while that means changing one thing (like reducing carb intake) can fix a lot of things, it is highly unlikely that the blame can be placed on any single thing. There are many ways to improve your health.
Totally agreed! There are many factors that go into metabolic health
- Elevated insulin levels
- High sugar foods
- Processed foods
- Industrial Oils consumption (driving inflammation)
- Randel Cycle activation (Sugar and fat eaten at the same time driving inflammation)
- Food allergies and intolerances
- Lack of physical activity
- Agrochemical contamination of foods
- Pollution
Each one of these can increase overall inflammation and insulin resistance. It appears people have a inflammation budget in which they can maintain metabolic health, but it’s very easy for people to go outside of this budget. The average westerner is getting all of the above negative factors, and for them the most effective path back into good health is to remove the carbohydrates. In the context of snoring the single most important thing to resolving ectopic fat is hormonal control, meaning normal insulin levels throughout the day - just cutting carbohydrates will do that overnight, its the most effective leaver to pull. Yes someone could increase their physical activity, cut out seed oils - gradually lowering their overall inflammation to the point where they can get their hormones under control, but its a much longer path then cutting carbohydrates.
Yes, Carbohydrates may not be the big evil in modern health (its some combination of the above as you said), but eliminating them is the most effective way to resolve metabolic issues.
I really don’t have the time or energy to read something that just reconfirms my beliefs. I’m also not that interested in snoring, but I am interested in reading about nutrition. You also said it yourself: “[snoring is] not a major health concern (sleep apnea is)”
I’m happy to talk about any topics of health or nutrition in detail, we don’t just have to talk about snoring, feel free to make a post in !ketogenic@discuss.online
Fair. I did allude to all the other times you’ve brought this up. I should’ve been clearer.
Ta! I appreciate you, we are communicating, which is the best possible outcome on lemmy.
Doesnt angle have a lot to do with it too? Like back is worst but also ive heard it can really help to have the surface tilted downward like a ramp. Seems like 45 degrees is best, perpendicular is worst
I’ve met plenty of very athletic, strict diet people who snore. Tons of variables are to be considered as to what causes it.
To the OP’s question: It depends. Again, lots of variables. If they have any concerns, they should talk to a doctor and not rely solely on answers from the Internet when it comes to medical questions.
There can be physical problems that cause snoring, your right there are many variables, but its not normal.
The problem with “strict diet” is it doesn’t account for metabolic health. There are many unhealthy diets out there, one feature of which can be misplaced fat. For instance there are many professional athletes with T2D.
It’s less common for young people to snore, so its a indicator there is a underlying metabolic issue they can address (if they care to). Think of snoring as subclinical sleep apnea (for illustrative purposes only), there is a spectrum of airway obstruction - you can go quite far down that spectrum without suffering major effects, but its a indicator of less then ideal metabolic health.
I don’t know if you’re correct or not but regardless, this argument definitely sounds like that doctor who told John Green it’s not normal to sneeze
that doctor who told John Green it’s not normal to sneeze
How many times have you sneezed today? Do you often sneeze with no stimulating cause? I watched the video, and while the doctor’s statement is reported without nuance (Mr Green didn’t speak with the doctor, he interviewed someone who spoke to a doctor many years ago and that was their recollection), I think it is a valid diagnostic question especially for a allergist or immunologist to use. FWIW I have only sneezed with some stimulating cause, and not “out of the blue”, to the best of my recollection. I think it’s reasonable for a doctor in the context of a diagnostic conversation to say “I never sneeze” leaving out the implicit (without stimulation) to try to coax out patient experiences by illustrating their importance. How about you?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snoring
Snoring is an abnormal breath sound caused by partially obstructed, turbulent airflow and vibration of tissues in the upper respiratory tract (e.g., uvula, soft palate, base of tongue) which occurs during sleep.
It’s a fair interpretation of the question, but I believe the original question was one more of practice than theory. In theory, it’s abnormal to snore. In practice, a good chunk of the population does snore.
In practice, a good chunk of the population does snore.
I totally agree with this statement, its very common in the current population.
However, it’s not healthy, so it isn’t normal in so far as normal implies healthy.
Thanks doc.
