Snowflakes: “It is offensive for a westerner to wear a Japanese kimono. You are not Japanese!”
Native Japanese: “We insist you wear this kimono so you feel like part of the group.”
Based on a true story.
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Cultural appropriation is when you take something sacred or special and don’t treat it with respect. Sombreros and parkas are just clothes.
Thanks for explaining. I never understood the American outrage about cultural appropriation but it’s just about respecting sacred symbols from other cultures? Sounds about right, please feel free to dress as a Frenchman with beret and baguette as long as you respect our no-tipping policy.
Next item to discover on my list: why are Americans so upset about “black face”. And that’s what I witnessed in Sevilla (Spain) recently which did not seem racist to me at all: https://cnnespanol.cnn.com/2023/01/05/polemica-espana-blackface-reyes-magos-trax/
Next item to discover on my list: why are Americans so upset about “black face”.
That’s because of minstrel shows. They were American comedy acts where actors would paint their faces black and act out racist stereotypes. The premise was “look at me! I’m a black person!” and then they’d do something stupid and everyone would laugh. Note that black people were slaves at the time. When slavery was (mostly) abolished after the civil war, the shows and makeup became symbols of racism.
It’s kind of like how a swastika in a Buddhist temple is fine but a swastika tattoo on a white American isn’t. The swastika doesn’t have to be racist symbol, but there are few places you could display one without it being interpreted as a racist symbol.
Great explanation, thank you very much!
The other comment explains most of it, but when it comes to acting specifically there’s also some level of “why didn’t you just get an actual black person”
To add to that explanation, dressing as a French person in a mocking way is not the same because the French were not enslaved people in the Americas. In fact, they were taking part in the enslaving. It is basically continuing to show that you are the superior party in the power dynamic in an extremely hurtful way.
I may be mistaken but I don’t think I’ve ever seen a French guy painted in black. However I don’t think it’s in anyway related to historical reasons, it’s mostly because it looks dumb and out of place.
Transferring your argument to the Sevilla parade where black faces were the norm last week, I believe they played a relatively minor role in the slave trade. And I have not seen a single black guy in the street the duration I was there, apart from one frenchman.
I believe they played a relatively minor role in the slave trade.
Are you fucking kidding me?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Cuba
Only abolished by Spanish royal decree in 1887. One of the last European colonies in the Americas to abolish slavery. Only Brazil came afterward two years later.
It’s also when someone takes from other cultures and then claim it as their own without acknowledging the origin. Like how Elvis covered songs from black artists and didn’t credited the original artists and now white people think they solely invented rock n roll.
He didn’t credit the white artists he covered either. But the fact that he gets the credit for inventing rock and roll when you had black people like Sister Rosetta Tharpe doing the crazy shit with guitar that Chuck Berry would later emulate all the way back in the 1930s. By the 1940s, she was playing what I think you could arguably say was as much rock and roll as what Elvis was doing.
Here in the Netherlands it was brown immigrants from the former Dutch Indies who introduced rock n roll to the Dutch audience. Like the Blue Diamonds And at the time people, even politicians, would call them heathens and such. But now that historic fact is mostly forgotten. And people think it was British bands like the Beatles who brought rock to the Netherlands, even though these immigrant bands paved the way for rock acceptance and for bands like the Beatles.
This kind of erasure happens everywhere.
I’d say this goes a little deeper than that, because American black people literally invented the art form while being actively segregated from white audiences (and much of society in general) and then all the credit goes to a white Southerner.
To an extent, like (as a Mexican) I don’t give a shit if people wear sombreros or ponchos as a form of clothing, but I see them wearing specifically as a costume especially on days like Cinco de Mayo (which is not a sacred holiday) and it pisses me right off.
My culture is not a costume, and that’s where I draw the line at appropriation. If you want to wear a sombrero or poncho cause you think it looks cool and you wear it as a part of your daily wear, that’s fuckin weird bro, but you do you.
Yeah this comic is just for snowflakes trying to feel better.
I think the more important factor is taking ownership over something that originated elsewhere.
Even though it isn’t sacred, I would argue that the association between Great Britain and tea comes from appropriation. It wasn’t necessarily appropriation for the Portuguese to bring tea back to Europe, but it certainly was when the British used Chinese seeds and cultivation techniques in India to push China out of the trade.
I think the more important factor is taking ownership over something that originated elsewhere.
This describes virtually every tool, food, piece of clothing, etc you have ever used that was invented before the 20th century. Most of them originating somewhere else and being copied, rebranded, and modified over and over for decades or centuries until they reached their current forms. The only real difference is how recently it happened and if you can wedge it into a power hierarchy in such a way as to be able to blame someone who’s an acceptable target for that blame.
Literally no Latin American is going to be bothered Or annoyed in any way whatsoever if you don typical dresses of their culture.
We love our culture and love it even more when we influence gringos to dress as our ancestors did.
The joy is palpable. It makes you part of the family. And that’s plenty
Besides, no one here knows what the deal is with getting offended on behalf of someone else. If anyone has a problem, they speak up their minds.
Slurs? Motherfückêr, that’s half our language.
This is one thing ive never understood about “cultural appropriation.” If someone is partaking in your nations/cultures traditions, apperal, food, etc. Why is that a bad thing? Wouldnt people want their traditions known and shared and experienced by many?
Idk im just a white guy who loves dia de los muertos
Enjoying other cultures isn’t appropriation. I think the line where it becomes appropriation is profiteering. If you are commodifying and profiting off someone else’s culture that’s pretty shitty. Obviously that’s not a perfectly clear cut line (who ‘owns’ culture?), but it’s a good place to start.
also when it becomes an issue is influenced by how accurate it is, how overused it feels, and (obviously) if it was made with the intent to insult
It’s a tough line to draw, because even if they aren’t the main profitees, the culture where the thing originated often still profited. e.g. AFAIK rock’n’roll getting popular with white americans was pretty good for black americans, even though many of the best selling artists (e.g. Elvis Presley) were white.
Idk im just a white guy who loves dia de los muertos
How dare you
I mean I’m Bavarian and if people wear Lederhosen and set up their own Oktoberfest it’s kinda lame. Not that I think it’s bad, it’s just that I’m not a fan of that stuff here either. You can totally have all of that. I keep the many many small breweries making fantastic beer.
Clothing and food are surface, but important, cultural signs. It can be easy to observe and emulate these for one’s own gain either socially or econically. All the while the culture from which these signs are derive are ignored.
Dressing up like a war chief for Halloween is partaking in the costume, but not the culture.
But who cares, right?
It’s important to root these in a history of colonial exploitation, marginalization, and erasure. A group of people whose way of life has been noted as barbaric, backwards, or savage were often the same reasons colonial powers saw it fit to steal from them, enslave, and murder them. Donning a cultures dress or making their food tastes “better” has done nothing to restore connection with that culture. It is just a more polite form of their erasure. They have been robbed of their soveignty.Another phenomena, as noted in the comic, is the chill acceptance of this by the appropriated culture. Here, they face no real erasure. Heck, you don’t really see this in newly immigrated peoples who want to make a better life for themselves. Being seen is success. But you speak to their first generation children and having their culture flattened to the surface signs can be infuriating if you are the type who views assimilation as a type of loss.
I personally think there is space for a member of the dominant culture to appreciate the culture if they’ve been invited. But it is important to be careful here as well. Because you may have earned that right with one group from within the culture, but that is not transferable and that exception must be earned again.
Heck, it gets even more complicated when people looking to just keep their schools open and working sge adults employed couldn’t care less when asked, but will ask if there’s anything that can be done to stabilize their community.
So I’ve written a lot and feel like I missed so much and glossed over much of what is important. What have you read about the subject that really attempted to wrestle with the concept?
Obviously intent comes into it, where wearing a reductive costume without any awareness (your Halloween costume example) is callous and ignorant of that person. I think some ignorance can be excused if this person couldn’t reasonably be expected to understand all the implications of a costume, even if it’s someone who should be expected to (thinking Trudeau Jr or Prince Harry when younger).
Regardless of the hypothesised (or real) impact to the community of someone wearing clothing arguably offensive to minorities with ancestry in the culture being mocked, those aspects aren’t what this cartoon is about. It’s about idiots who don’t understand nuance and repeat shit they see on social media unthinkingly until you get this absurd situation where someone wearing a hat and wearing it well is screamed at in public for no discernible reason.
Lots of people seeing it will do the same kind of wrong-generalisation in the opposite direction though, and take the valid point the cartoon makes to write off all concerns with cultural appropriation, including the valid ones you just made in your first paragraph.
The world is nuanced, and that’s nearly never conveyed well in our current public communications systems…
I am Latin American. We couldn’t even give an atomic sliver of a speck of fuck about gringos using part of our culture or the intention behind it.
If anything it’s enjoyable, one more for the family.
And if we get offended? Don’t worry. We don’t need anyone from a “dominant culture” to look down on us, thinking about saving us because we are oh so weak, or speak for us.
We can speak and do speak for ourselves.
I have no problem with that at all. Please dress up for the 16th of September, the Mexican Independence Day, or as a catrín on Día de los Muertos. My Korean friend looked so good as an Adelita and I was so proud of her.
I guess I’d only have a problem with a Halloween costume that exaggerates a negative and unrealistic stereotype but I don’t think people make those anymore, or at least I haven’t seen one.
Some people just love to find reasons to get offended.
Hell, a way to carry a baby was called cultural appropriation by some black people where I live when first Nations have been carrying their baby the same way on our territory since way before any black people set foot in northern America but we don’t hear them complain.
There’s a big difference between participation and appropriation, and the “anti-woke” hive mind goes out of it’s way to conflate the two.
It’s a thin line between celebrating indigenous cultures and heritage and exploiting it. The Washington Redskins being something I feel everyone can clearly see was over that line, but wearing a sombrero is clearly nowhere near it.
“Cultural Appropiation” is the single dumbest thing I’ve ever fucking heard.
All cultures grow by learning about and adopting customs of other cultures, or in other words by appropiating things from other cultures.
And if they did that didn’t we wouldn’t have things like anime (Japan took the art of animation from America, not only did The US invent cartoons, but anime evolve from styles used on early Disney cartoons), rock music (Rock musicians are predominantly white, but rock itself evolved from distinctly black forms of music), or really most food in general (Pizza’s from Italy, French Fries are from Belgium, Hot dogs are from Germany… Need I go on?)
At best, demonizing cultural appropiation is just encouraging segregation.
Now if you’re wearing the colors or clothing of another culture specifically with intent to insult or in a less-than-glamorous way… That’s a different story. (I’m talking about those of you who think putting on an ET Mask and a Sombreo and claiming you’re an illegal alien is hillarious)
This is the kind of Neo Liberal nonsense that makes me wish I had a party to root for that wasn’t the Democrats
IMO it’s appropriation if it’s done disrespectfully or in an exploitative or profiteering way. Otherwise, it would just be cultural segregation. Imagine liberalism turned full apartheid.
So if I want to open a Pinata factory, I can only sell them to Mexicans? Or can I sell them to anyone, but only to non-Mexicans at a profit? Or must every Pinata be made at home by a loving Mexican Grandmother for her Grandchildren only?
It’s awesome, racists and progs have the same end goal
Segregation.
It’s called White Savior Complex.
“Only I, a white person can save you from-- pick a thing. Because I believe you are incapable of fending for yourself, I shall be offended for you!”
Yeah. I see and experience this a lot from collectivists. It’s like they try to cover it under a thinly veiled hypocritical facade of “niceness” but still stinks like shit under it
I don’t have to go too far, just me mentioning that I am from Venezuela and that I know for a fact that the leftists destroyed my country, is enough for them to let go of that facade and go into a tirade of vindicative slurs.
Of course, I understand them. From thousand of kilometers away and armed with all of 15 minutes of a collectivist ideology pamphlet, they clearly know more about the struggles and history of the country I’ve lived all my life.
It’s damn true. I ran a crew of workers that were Spanish speaking. After two years all I gotta say is, is there a word that isn’t used as a dick?
Everything means dick in Spanish if you try hard enough
It applies to everything btw.
To date, “the thing from the thingy” is the most sought spare part in all of Latin America.
You don’t know what it is, no one knows, but it means nothing and everything at the same time.
Our hardware store dependents are fluent in trillion of languages at this point
Besides, no one here knows what the deal is with getting offended on behalf of someone else. If anyone has a problem, they speak up their minds.
I can explain. In theory the person who SHOULD be offended is a member of a minority and speaking their mind would open them to backlash from the majority so they say nothing. Its mental gymnastics that let’s a member of the majority “be a hero” for a minority even if that person doesn’t exist. But who cares about that as long as the white lady can think she is a good guy.
Its stupid and is not really about the appropriated culture.
So, virtue signaling?
Ah, as expected
I was with you until the last sentence. Can’t say I agree with the n word being a beautiful expression of English.
We in LATAM breath slurs and eat bullying for breakfast
Ew.
Yeah, it’s awesome 😎
So what does bullying taste like?
Lol, reminds me of one of the Mario games a while back - no idea what the context was, but Mario took on different personas, which I’m assuming gave him abilities specific to whatever ‘form’ he took kinda like Kirby.
Anywho, one of them was a Mexican theme, which made Mario don a sombrero and poncho. Lots of touchy white people on the internet were PISSED cuz how could Nintendo be so insensitive to the Mexican culture?!
…meanwhile, Mexican gamers were fucking ecstatic cuz HOLY SHIT MARIO’S WEARING A SOMBRERO! LET’S GOOOOOO!!!
Good times.
That was either Super Mario Odyssey or Paper Mario: Sticker Star (Mario can wear a sombrero in both). In Odyssey it’s just a themed cosmetic that can be bought with coins. In Sticker Star, it’s an attack.
Yeah and one of the reasons why we will never get again paper Mario references in other Mario games
God-damnit
It’s real simple; is the group in general okay with you wearing doing thwir traditions? If yes, then it’s okay.
So Kimonos, mostly okay, Native American Headdresses, mostly not okay.
Native American Headdresses, mostly not okay.
funny how no one ever comments on using native words for our apache helicopters and tomahawk cruise missiles, among others
I found this after a quick-ish google. Looks like occasionally people do, but they mostly get laughed at as the native cultures seemed to find it a sign of respect. And actually felt hurt when a helicopter dropped the naming convention.
Building an attack helicopter and naming it after a group of people who absolutely fucked your shit up seems like a sign of respect to me.
Like how WB quietly shelved Speedy Gonzalez and the Latin community was like “No, fuck you. He was OUR GUY, we had representation! Now his cousin, the lazy slow one… yeah that shit can go.”
Just not a football team I guess.
You’ll love this example of using native language. During the meeting where federal officials proposed the creation of an Indian Territory, the Choctaw tribe delegate Rev. Allen Wright suggested naming it “Oklahumma”. In the Choctaw language “okla” means “people” and “humma” means “red.” As a result, the area would be named Oklahoma Territory, or literally “Territory of the Red People.”
There are some arguments that “Homma” can also be a war title given for not retreating, but within the context of our racial history I don’t think that’s what they were going for.
And then of course, they named the main university’s mascots/fight song/etc after the “Boomers” and “Sooners” - people so eager to steal indigenous land that they couldn’t bother waiting for the government to make it legal.
There was a group that tried to get them to change it, but culture wars crowd absolutely pissed and shit themselves - they were already pissed after the chemistry building stopped being named after a Klan member.
At my wedding reception, my wife’s cousins plopped a giant black and gold sombrero on my head to welcome me to the family. I’m expected to bring said sombrero to family get togethers and smash beers con mi familia
I see muchos Modelos in your future!
Are you sure it was black and gold and not white and blue?
I’ve had so many people claim I’m racist online for saying stuff about China. Even after I point out that I’m Chinese, it still doesn’t help for some reason.
You’re speaking english on the internet. Not only are you white, you are American and Male by default.
I’m from a time where it was accepted there were no girls on the internet. Only kids and FBI agents. So yes, I’m male :)
Nah dude we’re all 16/f/cali for reals
Whats your ICQ?
i remember it started with an 8
i mean why would anyone other than an incel use these parts of the internet (lemmy/reddit/4chan/…)
It seems like literally every Chinese person I’ve talked to is absolutely delighted when a westerner is interested in Chinese culture. I remember being assigned a trip to a buffet for a high school Chinese class, and my atonal 你好 got about as much praise as a baby sputtering out “da-da” for the first time. I posted some calligraphy on 小红书 a couple days ago and I am getting gassed up for it.
You can say the most basic phrase in mandarin and completely screw it up both grammatically and pronunciation-wise and they’d absolutely love it and applaud you for it
Provided you’re white
Although the Chinese on XHS are actually quite annoyed at the waiguoren invasion right now
Although the Chinese on XHS are actually quite annoyed at the waiguoren invasion right now
My feed is mostly english speakers, but every post I saw to the effect of “gtfo this is a chinese space” was getting mocked by chinese people pointing out IP indicated it was posted from America.
This reminds me of a comic, which obviously should be taken playfully with a pinch of salt:
- Two Italian men are joined by a visitor trying to ask a question in Italian. “Ah, they’re trying to speak Italian!” and so they turn to the visitor and welcome them in Italian.
- Two German men are joined by a visitor trying to ask a question in German. “Ah, they’re trying to speak German!” and so they turn to the visitor and welcome them in English.
- Two Parisian men are joined by a visitor trying to ask a question in French. “Ah, they’re trying to speak French!” and so they turn away and ignore them.
This is a loud wake-up call that the internet is not reality.
I think it’s NIMBYism in a way. Sure, they like to talk to Laowai and like it when they do something Chinese, but they don’t really want them intruding on their social media network. The Great Firewall exists for a reason- Chinese culture and attitudes are vastly different to that of the west. There was a joke going around that watching Chinese short-form videos “is like tuning into interdimensional cable”
You can say racist stuff about a group whether you belong in the group or not.
What is this absurdity of thinking that you get a free pass to say crap?
“Black people should have remained slaves. But it’s ok, I can say it because I’m black”
Nonsense.
There’s a far cry between me criticising the CCP for things like the Uyghur genocide and other political issues, and your made up strawman argument. Anybody should be free to criticise any country in the first place, without having to worry about skin colour.
Keep saying it, you’re only offending reactionaries and tankies - and it is not even their goal to be happy, as near as anyone can tell.
Oh yeah, I’ve been banned multiple times for being a Chinese who’s racist against China. I plan to keep being racist by that particular definition.
I know someone who said that America is racist for siding with Taiwan on things and then I pointed out to them that (except a minority) Taiwan is predominantly Han Chinese
Both of you are right.
Nah fam only one of them is really, the other one is your standard racist disguised as a progressive
You implied that being Chinese is a counterpoint to people calling you racist. That’s what I was commenting on.
Whether what you said to those people was racist or not is out of the point. I was criticizing the fact that you consider that being Chinese would prevent you from being racist, which is absurd.
I think pretty much everybody can agree that being of a certain race gives you a lot more leeway and defense against accusations of racism against that race. It would take an extremely radical statement to go beyond that.
… at least, that’s what my black friends tell me when they call each other ‘nigga’.
Most americans maybe, I’ve never seen this idea anywhere else.
And funnily enough people don’t have the same logic with, for example, sexism.
black people are still slaves but now whites are too
This is just completely tone-deaf bullshit. Equating modern working conditions (in western countries) to slavery is like comparing a contemporary Scandinavian prison to Auschwitz. It’s by very far not the same.
Cultural appropriation is a broad enough term to functionally be meaningless, but I’ve found it helpful to think through 4 distinct interests at play, that I think are legitimate:
Proper attribution/credit. We don’t like plagiarism or unattributed copying in most art. Remixes, homages, reinterpretations, and even satire/parody are acceptable but we expect proper treatment of the original author and the original work. Some accusations of cultural appropriation take on this flavor, where there’s a perceived unfairness in how the originator of an idea is ignored and some copier is given credit. For a real world example of this, think of the times the fans of a particular musical artist get annoyed when a cover of one of that artist’s song becomes bigger than the original.
Proper labeling/consumer disclosure/trademark. Some people don’t like taking an established name and applying it outside of that original context. European nations can be pretty aggressive at preserving the names of certain wines (champagne versus sparkling wine) or cheeses (parmigiano reggiano versus parmesan) or other products. American producers are less aggressive about those types of geographic protected labels but have a much more aggressive system of trademarks generally: Coca Cola, Nike, Starbucks. In a sense, there’s literal ownership of a name and the owner should be entitled to decide what does or doesn’t get the label.
Cheapening of something special or disrespect for something sacred. For certain types of ceremonial clothing, wearing that clothing outside of the context of that ceremony seems disrespectful. Military types sometimes get offended by stolen valor when people wear ranks/ribbons/uniforms they haven’t personally earned, and want to gatekeep who gets to wear those things. In Wedding Crashers there’s a scene where Will Ferrell puts on a fake purple heart to try to get laid, and it’s widely understood by the audience to be a scummy move. Or, one could imagine the backlash if someone were to host some kind of drinking contest styled after some Christian communion rituals, complete with a host wearing stuff that looks like clergy attire.
Mockery of a group. Blackface, fake accents, and things of that nature are often in bad taste when used to mock people. It’s hard to pull this off without a lot of people catching strays, so it’s best to just avoid these practices. With costumes in general, there are things to look out for, especially if you’re going out and getting smashed.
This is probably the best most level-headed and respectful take I’ve seen regarding cultural appropriation. Thank you!
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LandedGentry
As, you must have been a mod from that “shit hole site”, I heard they were landed gentry!
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I might suggest a fifth item for your list, which has to do with whether you, as a non-minority, are appropriating something that a minority has been given a hard time for. For instance, a number of Black hairstyles have been denigrated for generations, leading to people having to deal with damaging, toxic, expensive, time consuming chemical treatments to achieve more culturally acceptable hair. So when non-minority people wear cornrows or dreadlocks to be trendy, especially while Black people are still being made to feel uncomfortable (or being discriminated against) for wearing the same styles, that can sting in a different way. This isn’t limited to cultural characteristics, but it’s a sensitive aspect of appropriation that includes cultural stuff.
I take issue with this.
Main point being that, no matter how respectful the appropriating individual is, they are now being judged for actions that they themselves may have never taken.
Secondary point, and I know this is a nitpick, you say “minority” and “non-minority”, but those terms can always flip when you change view points. I doubt you would give white people from African Countries a pass on their cornrows for being minorities in their country, and if you did, what if they move to the US?
I think people should be free to enjoy whatever hairstyle no matter the actions of unrelated other people. But what do I know, I’m just a person from a culture nobody wants to appropriate anyway.
I respect your opinion. I do want to clarify that if, let’s say, a white German living in Ghana were broadly discriminated against or mocked for wearing lederhosen (I won’t pretend to be able to think of an up-to-date cultural tradition specifically associated with white people, please bear with), then it would be hurtful for their Ghanaian neighbors to start “discovering” lederhosen-inspired fashions while denying the impacts of the ill treatment endured by these oppressed German transplants. It’s not about race or hairstyles, but mistreatment at the hands of people who (usually) don’t recognize the power or perceived power inherent to their social position.
I will give some more thought to your comment about white people from African countries. My initial reaction is that cornrows may or may not be part of their own culture, and they may not be living in a context where white people have the social power to harm or harass other Africans on a racial basis. If we’re talking about South Africa, of course, that’s not the case, so it still seems like it comes down to who’s in control. But I will reflect on it. Thanks.
I would like to add another viewpoint to the discussion. I am German, and for me it would heavily depend what you think while you wear it. Basically if I would ask you “what do you think about us Germans in Ghana”, the reply of the person would determine if them wearing Lederhosen is inappropriate or not. I absolutely agree with the fact that recognition of the mistreatment is the key point here; however, you often cannot recognize it from the outside. Obviously if someone wears a big MAGA sticker on their back, or a “Black Lives Matter” pin, it is easy to comprehend; but as very often in life, most situations aren’t as easy as that. Long story short, we often cannot recognize from the outside if something is cultural appropriation or not; we would need to ask the person.
The chapters and labeling makes me think of AI. It always does that in replies
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I just said that the formatting reminded me of AI. I didn’t talk about the content
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Not my intention
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Case in point: Mexicans loved Speedy Gonzalez.
Probably because he always outwits his opponents and always wins. He’s not any more crazy than the other Looney Tunes, he’s as smart as Bugs, and unlike Bugs, he’s never cruel and remains firmly heroic.
That’s the crux. He’s a Mexican stereotype, but at the time, it was rare to have a good guy who looked like that.
He was also the exact opposite of the other stereotype of the “lazy Mexican” - which, for anyone who’s ever worked construction with actual Mexicans, is comically inaccurate.
I wonder how much of the ‘lazy Mexican’ stereotype comes from a combination of an afternoon siesta (…to avoid the hottest part of the day, which could be deadly prior to air conditioning), and the chronic anemia that could be caused by hookworm infestations that used to be common in areas with poor sanitation (incl. the American south; some of the same stereotypes existed regarding rural southerners for many decades)?
Rodríguez cousin knew how to pack heat
Usually it is the Yankees who take offense at the expense of us Latinos. We will always love to see others enjoy a part of our culture (as long as it is not in an exploitative and fetishistic way).
fetishistic way>
I guess it was only a matter of time before I was called out on what I do with queso.
We will always love to see others enjoy a part of our culture (as long as it is not in an exploitative and fetishistic way).
I think this is a big part of the reason why some people get all white-knight about cultural appropriation. It can be quite difficult to know, as a cultural outsider, and from a glance, when something is being done in an exploitative and/or fetishistic way.
You know what? you’re right.
Usually, to solve that, what I do is look at who did it and ask (the person directly or myself) why they did it.
A practical example: You know that new DC animated series? I think it’s called Creature Commandos. I haven’t seen it, but I hear it’s very good. Mind you, if you have seen it, can you tell me if anything happens, anything at all, related to Venezuela?
What happens is that they used as intro a very famous and beloved Venezuelan song: “Moliendo Café” (grinding coffee). All the other Venezuelans I’ve seen have loved it, but I remain skeptical, because I can’t help wondering: Did they chose that song because it’s somehow related to what is told in the story? Because Gunn just wanted to? Or because it sounded “very Latin” and different enough from the Mexican songs they always reuse? If it’s the first, great; if it’s the second, no problem; but the third…?
And the thing is, if I happen to come across the Youtube channel of some Swiss guy doing a electric guitar cover of “Moliendo Café”, I wouldn’t even go to his comments and yell “Cultural Appropriation!”, because he’s just an individual and what he does is harmless (and pretty neat). But a big company like Warner/Discovery…?
Unless the main people responsible are from or have roots in the country where the cultural expression comes from, it can’t be anything but exploitation and, of course, cultural appropriation.
If it’s difficult to know, people probably should be given the benefit of the doubt
You mean I cannot wear a sombrero while having sex? That’s sad. But okay.
I mean “fetish” in the pretentious and boring way.
I was just joking. Imagine me having sex.
The way I tend to feel about this is that it’s a jerk move if you’re mocking some other group, or reasonably could be seen as mocking them, or try to claim that you/your group invented the thing you’re using, but otherwise, borrowing stuff people like from other cultures is just one of the ways cultures evolve.
I can see some people objecting on the grounds that imitating something distinctive makes that thing less unique to the original group, or that an imitation by outsiders won’t include some aspect important to the original and then that people that see the imitation won’t get that aspect.
I can certainly understand why those feelings could lead to frustration, but applied strictly, the idea that certain things belong exclusively to the cultures that invented them both requires forcing people into precise boxes as to which culture they belong to, and sort of resembles a type of socially enforced intellectual property, which, being against IP as a concept, is something I feel like I’d be hypocritical agreeing with.
Well said.
The only reason im replying is
being against IP as a concept
Has me hella curious. Can you elaborate? Is it the capitalist aspect of patents/trademarks and licensing or something else? I believe that people who invent a concept/character/world should have ownership to develop it into what their grander vision may be before someone else can come and write the story/use of their tool. Id love to hear your side of this though because I don’t know anyone thats ever told me their against IP as a concept
This is a great read on the IP topic. I highly recommend it:
This is the co-author’s site and it does contain the full text, although physical copies are available directly from the Cambridge University Press.
Here’s a summary:
“Intellectual property” – patents and copyrights – have become controversial. We witness teenagers being sued for “pirating” music – and we observe AIDS patients in Africa dying due to lack of ability to pay for drugs that are high priced to satisfy patent holders. Are patents and copyrights essential to thriving creation and innovation – do we need them so that we all may enjoy fine music and good health? Across time and space the resounding answer is: No. So-called intellectual property is in fact an “intellectual monopoly” that hinders rather than helps the competitive free market regime that has delivered wealth and innovation to our doorsteps. This book has broad coverage of both copyrights and patents and is designed for a general audience, focusing on simple examples. The authors conclude that the only sensible policy to follow is to eliminate the patents and copyright systems as they currently exist.
ETA: It’s written from the perspective of believers in the broad capitalist structure. The authors are serious economists that support the free market in no uncertain terms.
I would argue that IP doesnt need to be purly capitalistic though. Yea i agree that if we have a life saving drug, dont let 1 company monopolize the shit out of it and let people die for an extra dollar, but i dont know that ill say IP shouldnt exist.
If someone writes a story, creates a character or world, i want that content creator to be able to develop it without people infringing. If someone created a great game, i dont want a bunch of shit companies racing to put out the next title in the interest of making a buck off someone elses idea. I want who ever created that game to own the franchise long enough that they can make a second, third, or 4th game (or what ever media they adapt) to continue telling their story before other people put out low quality content that spoils the franchise
i dont know that ill say IP shouldnt exist.
And the authors aren’t really saying that, either.
To be clear, I don’t agree with all of the authors’ positions. I also think it’s worth noting that the authors are not advocating for an elimination of the patent and copyright systems without replacing them with systems better suited to ensuring creator prosperity while also allowing for speedier human innovation.
It’s worth a read, if you’re interested in the subject matter. It challenged my opinions on intellectual property, but didn’t change them entirely. Things they discuss, such as patent trolling and patent squatting, are worth contemplation. How can we change IP law to disincentivize such antisocial intellectual property law use by bad-faith actors?
ETA:
The economic burden of today’s patent lawsuits is, in fact, historically unprecedented. Research shows that patent trolls cost defendant firms $29 billion per year in direct out-of-pocket costs; in aggregate, patent litigation destroys over $60 billion in firm wealth each year.
(From the above article… and that was in 2014!)
Culture is meant to be shared, as long as you’re respectful and you’re not caricaturing or mocking the culture you’re trying to portray, most people from said culture would be flattered.
Yeah context and intend make all the difference. Cultural appropriation is when you try to clad yourself in something that is a facsimile of another culture, usually for marketing or influence purposes, but you neither understand nor have any intend to understand the culture itself or the meaning behind the parts you use for your (usually financial) gain.
IDK, even then, I don’t think you need to understand the culture about it so much. E.g. there was some incident about a white girl wearing a qipao to prom and she got called out for it. In the end, it’s just a piece of clothing that looks nice. It isn’t some deeply symbolic thing for people.
I don’t expect her to try to understand Chinese culture before wearing a qipao (which originated in Mongolia before Chinese appropriated it BTW), and I don’t expect Chinese to understand Western culture before wearing a suit and tie.
But obviously there are some cases, as you said where context does matter.
Mocking cultures is fine. Mocking anything is fine.
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It doesn’tIt does
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Lol, you got me there.
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I’m not, I even edited the prior comment I made.
I remember seeing a child have a japanese themed birthday. Some white person was giving off to her parents for cultural appropriation while Japanese people were flattered
Found it
She’s wearing chopsticks in her hair which is generally frowned upon. She could’ve used a broach or a traditional kansashi instead which would’ve made her look more elegant.
What a scrub, git gud kid
I love this
Of course it was Tumblr
It turned out that although she looked white and her parents looked white, her extended family was actually asian. So it wasn’t even appropiation to begin with.
Still everyone needs to chill, my fellow honkeys, please stop getting offended on behalf of others. Playing the role of the “White Savior” comes off as more bigoted than progressive.
I saw a The Onion video where a white woman pledged to never say a word that began with the letter N. Not only the N word, all N words.
“I was shouted down for wearing black facepaint and white lipstick, so why does Tom get to wear a kimono?”
Ahh… The Onion, my favorite, most reliable, 100% not parodic news outlet
Yes, The Onion is satire, but we’re talking about the idea The Onion was satirizing.
I want a Green Hat that says “Make The Onion Satirical Again”
“whites”
Point taken, reworded it
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please stop getting offended on behalf of others
You, and the rest of the posters on here, completely misunderstand. I, a white guy, don’t get offended “on behalf of others” - the fact that white people have to constantly reference other cultures because we sterilized and sacrificed our own for the sake of white supremacism and “westernism” so long ago is offensive, period.
This is an exact copy of a YouTube video from years ago
Are you saying this is content appropriation?
I don’t think it’s offensive, but if you’re wearing that just to make a point then maybe you’re just looking to offend people. This is less directed to the comic and more directed to the YouTube clips I have seen of similar scenario.
I’d imagine most would wear those clothes because fun
There’s a Prager U video about this.
It’s ok to do offensive things if you can find a representative to validate your behavior
I don’t think just wearing the clothes is offensive thing to begin with
Wearing specific cloths in an attempt to offend people is offensive. Not hard to understand.
People don’t just wear sombreros and fucking native headdresses. And if they were just wearing them they probably wouldn’t be bugging random ethnic people about wearing “their” cloths.
You know what you are doing and it’s not clever, cute or funny.
Yet again the right makes up an issue for idiots to be mad about and then “fixes” the issue by being edgy instead of paying attention to real problems in the real world.
Wearing specific cloths in an attempt to offend people is offensive. Not hard to understand.
Right but I did say just wearing them alone isn’t offensive.
People don’t just wear sombreros and fucking native headdresses.
Uhh, what. Some just like different clothes…
And if they were just wearing them they probably wouldn’t be bugging random ethnic people about wearing “their” cloths.
I’m not sure what you mean by this. Is this the sort of reasoning that since someone got upset about it the person wearing the clothes must have done something else to upset the other person? There was the kid wearing a kimono thing posted in the comments with someone getting upset about this. I’d be hesitant to say that the kid must’ve had bad intentions just because someone got upset about it.
You know what you are doing and it’s not clever, cute or funny.
I’m disappointed to hear you don’t find me cute but I honestly don’t know what you mean.
Yet again the right makes up an issue for idiots to be mad about and then “fixes” the issue by being edgy instead of paying attention to real problems in the real world.
Not sure what this has to do with me. I don’t think there’s an issue to begin with tbh.
Troll blocked
Well alright
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Most could be anything from just over 50% to 99%.
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Are you for real, I said “most” because it’s a vague guess and not some actual number.
But sure, let’s say it’s 99.919191%. Repeating of course. Better? lol
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The “I’d imagine” part of the reply might’ve been a bit of a tell
